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My blogging friend Eruesso recently commented on an article concerning Christian friendship and Jesus hanging out with sinners.

Eruesso has just provided another comment in relation to those things:

I believe the fork in our inter-blog dialogue road is based firmly in the definition of Sin/Sinner. What I was pointing out was the historical definition of sin to the Jewish people which was based on tradition and scripture that came from God. In the Jewish social world the purity laws in 1st century Palestine defined who was or wasn’t a sinner. This is different from the Christian definition of sinner which originates at the fall of Adam (Hebrew for mankind, I think) where man lost his Edenic state. What I am describing is how Jews as a people viewed, defined, and interpreted the borders between the righteous and the unrighteous. Jesus, as a 1st  century Palestinian Jew, would have been brought up in the purity system.  This system was ruled and governed by the elite (The Pharisees) power group who also had a say in who was righteous and who wasn’t. It is this very system that he challenged by simultaneously preaching a social and spiritual message.  I believe that both messages share the same heart, to be “compassionate as your Father is compassionate.” (Luke 6:36)

Socially, this meant that even the sinners, the unclean, can be pure, not by following rituals but by turning their hearts to God. Those who were labeled impure just based on their social status (gentile, poor, Samaritan, etc.) did not have to go through the power structure controlled by the ruling elites at the very heart of the Jewish society, The Temple. Jesus struck a major nerve and shook the very foundation of the Jewish power structure by hanging out with the unclean. No, he did not hang with them to ‘party’ but to further his point: we are socially equal (remember that unclean people were shunned, outcast) and there is nothing wrong with wining and dining with the “scum of the Earth” because we are all God’s children. Jesus was a wanderer, of course he probably didn’t have time to become best friends with the people he interacted with, but my point is in such a socially structured and dualistic ( pure vs. impure) society, Jesus broke all the rules. His table fellowshipping with the outcasts was a form of non-violent resistance like those demonstrated during the civil rights movement.

Spiritually, this also broke all the boundaries, and even challenged the very laws that were given to them by God and interpreted and even enforced by the Pharisees. The Pharisees made sure that they not only they kept their power (and their heads) but they had to keep the peace when this rable-rouser Jesus appeared on the scene: big crowds meant a possible riot which could turn into a rebellion. The Romans didn’t want that nor did those in local power including the Pharisee. The message that I’m afraid most Christians completely overlook is the message of compassion, love, and kindness towards one another. This is the message that I believe (not know since we can not know what Jesus actually taught or how he acted) Jesus brought to his people in order to reform Judaism. But the very act of bringing people back to God with a message of compassion challenged the religious, social, and economic order (the temple brought in a lot of cash).

This is not a justification to hang out with Godless sinners but a different view on the life and teachings on Jesus Christ. I must admit that this is a purely historical view based on a reconstruction of what Jesus actually could have said and taught without the possibility of his followers attributing sayings to him. Crack open an NIV Bible and already you’ll notice that some verses have been removed because they don’t appear in the earliest and most reliable witnesses (manuscripts) that we can find. Some of the top New Testament scholars go through the the New Testament and examine it for interpolations and other corrections that those who participated in the transmission of the Bible might have done (either by accident or on purpose). Groups like the Jesus Seminar try and reconstruct what Jesus would have said based on his culture, tradition, and the earliest (least edited) sayings of Christ. Those who take the entire Bible as inerrant and infallible are bound by the Bible as it is in its current form. Because I view God, the scriptures, and the history of the Christian tradition differently we will never come to agree on a lot of things. What guides me is imitatio dei – (an imitation of God)- to be compassionate, loving, and kind as God through the example of Jesus. If I am truly dedicated to my spiritual growth then why would I steal, rape, and murder? Why would I lie, beat, covet? Why would I intentionally do anything that would hurt anyone else in anyway? I wouldn’t. This doesn’t mean that I am not capable of these things but that I feel no urge to cause my brother any pain whatsoever. So even if the only thing we have is that last line in common (do no harm) then we at least are headed in the right direction. If God chooses to cast me in Hell for loving my fellow man and believing in a “skewed” version of Christianity then so be it. I’d rather be condemned attempting to do some good in this world even if it means death. Isn’t that what Christ would have done?

Peace and blessing be upon you my brother.
Let us always strive for compassion.

Whoa Nelly! Eruesso, I think we both misunderstood each other a bit, so I am glad you provided this comment so we could discuss things further. Sometimes it is difficult to understand exactly where we are coming from by reading text only.

Regarding Definition of Sin in Historical Pharisee Context

First let me say, I totally agree with the entire first part above about Jesus and the social thing. You made a great point. The Pharisees apparently liked to develop their own man-made rules and rituals (which had no biblical basis), and value that over actual scripture.

I think Jesus’ whole point was, “Hey, it makes no sense what you guys are doing, it isn’t scriptural, it isn’t Godly.” So I think we completely agree on that whole point. In fact, I think the entire first paragraphs are very well said and I agree.

The main point of this post is I wanted to discuss what you said in your last paragraph, because I think I need to clear some things up that I think you mistook. Also, I do want to make some other comments. So the rest of this is about the last paragraph above. This can be summarized as:

1. Where I am coming from in the articles I write (I wasn’t trying to attack you personally, I was writing to all people)
2. My view on inter-dialogue
3. Some points about other faiths/inerrancy of the bible
4. Other religions

Where Am I Coming From In My Articles?

I am deeply fascinated with religion (as I suspect you might be). But when I write on this blog, it is with 2 main goals: To write about my own views, interests, and so forth; and (2) to help other Christians get a scriptural perspective on topics. Number 2 seems to take over in a lot of posts.

So I definitely have intent with every article I write, other than just writing for the sake of my interests. I know that over time, any given article may be read by hundreds, thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of people. So I try to write what I feel the scriptures are saying, and give a good message to help keep Christians on the right path and to help them make decisions.

There have been so many web articles online that have really influenced my beliefs, and I know first-hand how much a simple article can really influence a person’s life. So I take that very very seriously.

So with the article I wrote about Jesus hanging with sinners, a lot of the content in that article wasn’t directed to you personally, but rather, was written in a way to really impact someone searching for this.

I try to keep in mind that some innocent Christians may be typing into Google, “Jesus friends with sinners” and they are looking for an excuse to hang with someone they ought to not hang with. So I think perhaps I should have been more clear on that because I certainly didn’t direct some of those things to you, but rather, was trying to make extreme examples to help others who may search for it.

I in NO WAY was trying to imply that you were going to be tossed into fire, or that you were wicked or anything like that at all. So please understand that. And I hope I have communicated that point well.

My Views On Inter-Faith Dialogue

I love to have dialogue with others. I think dialogue is great because it keeps us on track, it points out errors, it forces us to re-think our views and stances on certain things, and it helps us to understand the position of other people, etc.

So I always appreciate a good dialogue or discussion on a particular topic. I have had a great many theological stances questioned on here, and I always enjoy explaining my side and reasoning with scriptures, science, history, and so forth.

But again, when I do go into dialogue mode, I not only write with the state of mind of responding to 1 individual, but I keep in mind that many individuals may read this over time.

In addition, as a Christian I also feel as if I have an obligation to at least discuss or challenge beliefs by others (just like many people do to me).

“He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it… Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith.” (Titus 1:9, 13)

I think that rebuking, challenging, and questioning each other as Christians helps keep us within a certain parameter of “safeness” scripturally speaking.  As the bible says, “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another (Proverbs 27:17).”

So I do think it is important (and an obligation) for us to discuss things that may go against scripture, or lead people to do things which could corrupt their faith.

My Brief History of Religious Experience

I was not raised in an overly religious household. My mother was a single mom (divorced) after her and my father divorced when I was 5 years old (and I never heard from him again). I rarely went to church as a kid. My mom did sometimes reference God, and I did have a belief in God and sometimes prayed, but I knew very little of the bible.

As I entered my teens, I still wasn’t super religious. I could probably count on my  hand the times I went to church in my teens. I did have a belief in God, but I certainly didn’t bother trying to follow God’s laws (and I didn’t really know much about theology or the bible).

Towards my late teens, I got an interest in religion. I tried to study the bible and learn more. I did learn quite a bit, but eventually I stopped trying to learn and went back to my old ways.

This interest re-surged with the passion of the Christ movie coming out, but once again, I studied hard and tried to learn about God, but soon my interest faded and I went back to my old ways of doing what I wanted but kinda believing in God.

At this point, I started to have a lot of family problems. My wife and I had a huge struggle with our families. Eventually we moved out into our own apartment and got married. My life kinda fell apart. I got this very annoying hives condition called Cholinergic Urticaria (which I still have today).

I quit my job (I was working at a local retail store). I even dropped out of college 1 semester shy of graduation in hopes of starting my own business (and I did, which was another major struggle).

But I had so many struggles, so many tears, and so many frustrations that I completely lost my faith. How could a loving God not help me? Why have I suffered so much? I became a complete atheist. I totally bought into all of the secular views in life (evolution, religion just being silly, etc.). I even had a mocking attitude myself towards God.

Over time, my atheism grew strong. I even despised hearing my mom say something on the phone such as, “I prayed for so and so.” I thought to myself, “How ridiculous! What is God going to do about it?”

I stayed this way for probably a good year or two. My life became more and more dark, less and less loving. I realized that if God didn’t exist, life was pointless. You could be nice and loving if you wanted, but you certainly don’t have to. I didn’t even want to live any more. Life seemed totally pointless and worthless. I felt numb inside. I felt like I wanted to die quite often.

About this time, I decided one day that once and for all I was going to really research all of the evidence. If God didn’t really exist, I wanted to know for sure. I was already an atheist, but I decided I better fully research this position. But I agreed to have an open mind while doing this.

So I objectively started researching atheism, the bible, theology, even looking at other religions and their interpretations. The more I researched, the more evidence I found that it is likely a God does exist. My atheism became weaker and weaker until I started to believe again. In fact, it requires a lot less faith to be a Christian than it does to be an atheist.

So I kept being critical of everything, and I researched and read many articles, books, documentaries, etc. I kept and kept asking questions. I had this unquenchable interest to know if God existed. Why? Because if God does exist, that to me is a big deal. It can change how I live my life. If God doesn’t exist, that too is a big deal, and that can change how I live my life.

As you can probably guess, eventually I kept asking, kept digging, and came around full circle to not only believing in God, but in particular Christianity. The more I tried to alter my behavior and follow Christ, the better I felt. My life started to improve. I believe very deeply in God, and I am still learning a great deal, but I know why I believe what I believe, and I can back it up with reason and evidence (something I could never have done before).

Everybody Has a Religion, and That Is Important to Know

A religion to me can be defined as a set of beliefs about life, how it got here, and what it means. Religions are very important, because your entire life (thoughts, actions, etc.) will be governed by these world-view beliefs. I guess these are the “main” religions in the world (although there are probably countless other smaller ones I haven’t listed here):

1. Atheism (yes it is a religion folks)
2. Agnosticism (generally not sure, however, will have a particular belief on something if you ask specifically)
3. Christianity
4. Islam
5. Judaism
6. Wicca
7. Buddhism
8. Hinduism
9. Scientology
10. Create Your Own Religion (combine any of the doctrine principles above to create your own mix and match). This is kinda like getting a sub at Subway, just pick the parts you like to add on your religion sandwich!

Atheism is as much a religion as any one of those others. It has its own creation story (abiogenesis, big bang, and evolution), an so forth. In addition, each branch of a religion (Christianity) is sub-divided into different denominations (which are man-made divisions based on various interpretations of the same faith/scriptures).

And lastly, we have the “create your own religion” brand of religion which basically seeks to put together a patch-work of a religion by “borrowing” things from each religion. So there may a person who is mostly atheist, but at the same times goes by the bible’s morality code. Or they believe in the bible, but ignore the bible’s creation story and instead substitute the atheism religion’s creation story.

Or they may have a mostly Wiccan person who also believes in elements or some things in Christianity.

What is the Point I am Making About My Story and Religions?

The point I am trying to make is that often times when a person chooses a religion, they run with it. They see the world from the lens of that religious perspective from that point forward, and they usually try to share this with others (either forcefully in terms of evangelizing, or not so forcefully).

They constantly judge, analyze, and come to conclusions about things that are consistent with their world view (and usually ignore anything that contradicts that view). Since everyone has a religion, this has rather large implications. All evidence or beliefs will come from a biased world view. Every teacher you have in school has this, and they will teach with bias.

Your blog is a journey of you trying to understand and seek God. In many of the posts you have made, and things you have said, I see a lot of my previous “secular” thinking in it, and that rings true even in the last paragraph of your comment above.

Because what I see is that you are getting confused by other religions, and you are letting them sway and corrupt your own beliefs and journey. Those Jesus seminar people have their own religion. They are certainly not going to try and prove any scriptural point that the bible is inerrant are they?

It is highly doubtful. Especially since the Jesus seminar has an agenda (according to Wikipedia), it is, “One of the most active groups in bible criticisms.” So would you expect a group that exists solely to criticize the bible to produce evidence that it is truth? Um, of course not.

Would you expect OJ Simpson’s defense attorney to produce evidence of why OJ did it? Of course not, that isn’t his job. His job would be to show evidence of why OJ was innocent (cough cough).

Would you expect Richard Dawkins to write a book about the flaws of evolution (his creation story as a religious atheist)? Or would you expect him to write a book about why he think God doesn’t exist? And what did he do…Bingo! Every religious person wants you to join their religion, even if they personally gain nothing from it!

Yes, even atheists spend all day on forums trying to get converts, and they create sites and articles and videos to sway people, and if you think I am lying, I will prove it!

Are atheists going to suddenly start producing evidence that God exists? Of course not! That isn’t their job, nor their religion. That is the job of those who believe in God, and are searching for God. You want evidence for God in science? Check out the Discovery Institute.

Want science evidence of why God doesn’t exist, read Mr. Dawkins. Atheists aren’t even as much as searching for God. You find what you seek in life, don’t you? If you google Windows Vista sucks, surely enough you will find it. Google Windows Vista is awesome, and likewise you find it. If you search for God, surely enough you will find Him. Want to not find God, atheists will show you some tricks on how to ignore Him.

Some like to claim that, “I don’t believe in God because of the evidence.” That is bull because then I ask, “If you knew God existed would you follow him?” 99% of atheists I have asked then reply, “I would never follow the God of the bible, he is a blankedy blank blank blank.”

So you see, they have no interest in God (or a god) Eruesso. Even if God appeared to them, they still wouldn’t follow Him because they don’t like Him. They don’t want to find God for the same reason a thief doesn’t want to find a cop.

But yet you are believing the crap they keep “preaching.” You are getting swayed by multiple religions, and you are desperately trying to reconcile them all together. You are trying to fit together a puzzle, and the pieces refuse to fit together.

How Can We Put Together a God Puzzle?

If you bought 5 different puzzles of completely different images (religions), mixed the pieces together, separated them, and then tried to individually put them back together, what would happen? You might get a few lucky pieces that fit, but most wouldn’t. If you really wanted to make a puzzle with mixed pieces, you would eventually have to jam the pieces in, cut them to fit, or simply discard some.

But what would an image look like on a finished puzzle like that? Nothing like the image on the puzzle box. In fact, it probably wouldn’t look like anything. It would be a jumbled up mess.

You say that you are seeking God, yet how on Earth can you ever find him by looking at atheists and Jesus seminar people’s puzzle pieces, and trying to piece God together from that? If you want to find God, why not start with puzzle pieces of puzzles (religions) that at least believe in God? Doesn’t that make sense?

I mean, if you were trying to invent an electric car, would you go ask people’s advice who don’t think it can be done? Or would you go and question electrical engineers who think it can be done?

If you truly want to find God, you are going to have to make a decision to let go of the secular atheists mumbo jumbo, and trust the religious folks. Sure, there are people everywhere who may question God, the bible, and everything. But for every one secular person who says the scriptures are “fake,” I’ll bet you will find yet another religious scholar that will prove how they are not.

And once again, if you rejected the whole New Testament and only thought 1 book was true and historical, that would justify all others. Why not believe even that one? I mean, it is obvious that the Christian message is solid enough. The early apostles broke their back to get this message out. If they hadn’t Christianity would have never survived.

So I don’t care at all when some group comes out and suggests scriptures aren’t true. No big surprise there, especially when you always look at the source! Even if a paragraph was found to be omitted, what does that change? Nothing. Maybe a copyist forgot to copy. Or perhaps they are wrong about it being earlier. How do they know? They don’t KNOW, they just THINK.

But it is like you are so skeptical of the bible and certain parts of religion, and I don’t doubt that comes from secular brain washing that you have been exposed to in books, teachers at school, etc. It is like you are far more critical of the bible than you are of people with an obvious agenda today.

Example: how you come up with this stuff about the bible being man’s interpretation of God? I’ll bet you read it somewhere, or heard a teacher say it, right? But aren’t you following that teacher, instead of following THE teacher?

Aren’t you placing more faith and trust in the secular way of thinking, than that of Jesus’ way of thinking? So are you truly following Christ by doing so? Or are you following _______(insert teacher/author’s name here) more?

Personally, I believe in God, and the bible. If believing in God is wrong, I don’t want to be right. The world isn’t good enough anyway. Too much pain, sorrow, and disappointment exists for me to be satisfied living in a world with no God (or no god that cares).

Do You Believe in Christianity, Another Religion, or a Patchwork?

I would challenge you by asking what you do believe. Which of these fit you:

1. You believe in Christianity totally.
2. You believe in parts of Christianity, but discard the parts you disagree with, and fill it with parts of other religions.
3. You reject Christianity altogether.

If you answered number 1, then you are following Christ, anything other than number one is something else. Christ certainly believed the bible was from God. He didn’t think Moses was a guy trying to grapple with an understanding of God. Jesus viewed Moses as a guy who God appointed and dictated laws through for Israel in a very real historical event, and yes, even the flood of Noah was too.

Jesus certainly taught love and compassion. He certainly didn’t care about social status or trivial things like that (and neither should we). But Jesus cared a great deal about following God and repentance of sin. He was the biggest bible literalist that ever existed!

Jesus would have never said the scriptures were man trying to pen down interpretations of God. A Jesus Seminar person would probably say that. An atheist would most assuredly say that. But never Jesus Christ.

So who’s opinion do you value more? God and Christ? Or a bunch of secular people who know nothing and just think they know? Is there really a compromise? I don’t think there is any compromise to be had here. If you say you like Christ, why do you prefer atheists and Jesus seminar views on scripture more than his?

Or let me ask this: Are you so confident at this point that the bible isn’t true, that you are willing to risk your life on it? Do you trust the secular people that much? Even in lieu of other evidence which supports the accuracy of the historicity of the scriptures?

I’ll bet you cannot show me 1 devout Christian who is saying that stuff about the bible being, “man trying to interpret God.” That stuff only comes from other religions trying to confuse you and sway you, or people who are so slack on their faith that they don’t even really follow it or believe it.

You  must eventually decide who you will trust more. Is it Christ? Or the seculars?

Can Anyone Ride 2  Horses Going In Opposite Directions? Can Anyone Serve 2 Masters?

I can’t see any logical way how anyone could ride on two horses simultaneously that are traveling in opposite directions. Nor can I see how anyone can serve 2 contradictory masters or teachings.

I totally understand and relate with your wanting to take a step back and look at things objectively. But the path you are on will have some major forks. I have chosen a path, and I may still have a journey ahead, but at least I know where my path is leading.

When you come to the great forks,  who will you trust more? The words of Jesus, or your teacher? The words of the prophets, or those of the Jesus seminar? The witness of the apostles who knew Jesus, or the witnesses of atheism who did not?

You can’t follow them all. You will either have to jump on one road and stick with it, or never choose a road and make your own road in the dirt. But is a dirt road worth riding on? You may risk choking on the dust that arises from trying to carve a path.

When you play musical chairs, there is nothing wrong with looking at all chairs objectively while the music is playing. But when the music stops, if you haven’t decided on a chair, then what? You lose, right?

Why Am I Saying All This? Because I am Prideful and Arrogant?

I assure you that while I suppose some may read what I write here and suggest I am arrogant or prideful, I try very hard to be the opposite. I know I am wrong. I know I have sinned. I know I have (and do) make mistakes.

I am not smarter than you, better than you, trying to judge you spiritually, or anything at all like that. So please do not think that is what this is about. For all I know, perhaps I will be thrown into the lake of fire. And you certainly seem like a nice, loving, and compassionate guy.

Instead, this is just about me trying to influence you. You hear the other influences of the secular people, so I hope you at least consider the influence of a guy who believes in God. Even though I certainly don’t have all the answers, at least I will tell you up front that I have a religion and want to sway you. The others pretend it isn’t a religion, and that they aren’t trying to sway you, but rather, are presenting some fact (and it isn’t).

ALL people in this life have a religion, and ALL want to sway you towards it. Richard Dawkins certainly is a great apostle of atheism. Even your religion teacher certainly doesn’t believe in God in the context of his own historical culture, and sadly, that will probably sway you as well.

Why Is There So Much Confusion In the World When It Comes to Religions?

People who reject God have no choice but to come up with alternative explanations. This is the origin of other religions. So with people denying God, they are left to come up with all sorts of interpretations and beliefs.

I know this gets confusing, because it is sometimes hard to distinguish belief from truth. I once had a teacher at East Tennessee State  University that was teaching a class called, “Science and the modern world.”

He would always scoff at religion, and talk really harshly about Christians (and point out flaws in history made by them). He would even brag about how he writes to a newspaper pretending to be other people, and he would mock religion and ask inappropriate questions, and then sometimes write in using a different name answering his own question.

I would usually just brush it off (and sometimes I was offended), but I thought nothing of it. At this point in time, I didn’t have a firm belief anyway.

Well, come to find out, he is one of the big “atheists” who hate religion. His name was Dr. Niall Shanks. He even wrote a book trying to refute intelligent design (with a foreword by Richard Dawkins…go figure). He mocks creationsists as scum of the Earth quacks.

So you see Eruesso, when you hear people talk about God and mock him and provide a bunch of nonsense to confuse you, you should always keep in mind that they are doing it because it is their religion.

The Shanks guy was far more religious than most people I know. Most Christians I know never write books about religion. They don’t blog about it. They don’t try to witness about God as a teacher (in their jobs).

Yet this man not only tried to convince his class God didn’t exist, but he debates religion in his spare time, he writes about it, and more. See, atheists are some of the most religious people I know, and they very much want to convert you.

If they can’t convert you, they at least want you to doubt the bible and God so you will possibly convert in the future. Remember the very first appearance of Satan in the bible. What did he do? The very first thing out of his mouth was a question. A question to cast doubt on God’s word.

…He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” Genesis 3:1

The next word was a contradictory teaching that God  himself commanded and Satan said, “You will not surely die.” So you see a pattern here: They ask questions, and contradict teachings of God. Why? So they can confuse and distort you.

Conclusion: Are You Searching For God or Not?

I ask all of this in hopes that you will simply think. Nothing more, nothing less. I want you to be as critical of the secular teachings and “evidence” as you are about some things of the bible.

Are you truly searching for God? Do you really want to complete this puzzle? You say on your blog that you see too many patterns and so forth and you believe there is a God.

Congrats, that is the first piece of the puzzle. But why on Earth do you keep back tracking and getting so influenced by those who reject God? Why use pieces of puzzles that won’t fit into your God puzzle?

Atheists and Jesus seminar people have no business in a God puzzle. They have nothing to do with God. Everything they do is in the pre-conceived notion that no God is there.

If you are going to build a boat, why get parts for a car? Why not get boat parts to build a boat. If you are searching for God, why keep getting swayed so much by secular thinking? Their entire thought process comes from the bias of “THERE IS NO GOD.”

You are searching for God. You will find him. But you can’t look at all the evidence that shows God doesn’t exist (and questions all things pertaining to that). You must search for the evidence that God DOES exist, and work forward from there. Don’t just look at evidence the bible is inaccurate, but rather listen to the countless scholars who stand by it.

Doesn’t that sorta imply that at some point you will have to stop listening to other religions? Isn’t there a certain point where you will choose to trust one over the other?

I just want to say, I hope nothing offended you at all. I am just asking you to think, that is it. I am totally for loving and being compassionate. But at the same time, I think we must follow it all if we are Christians. If not, perhaps we aren’t truly following God’s word.

I hope that you choose Christ over the others. I hope you choose the God of the bible over the other gods (or some made up god).

I too have read a great many books on atheism. I have looked at their creation story. I have listened to criticisms of God and the bible. But at some point, I chose to listen more to those who said, “hey, there is something here.”

So now, I don’t listen to that junk any more. If I do, it is to simply see the ridiculousness of it, to refute it, or something else. I am super skeptical of anything that comes out of their mouth.

So in conclusion: Please, just don’t turn your back on God or Christ. Don’t look through the lens of unbelief. Look through the lens as a believer. Don’t choose secularism over Christ. Don’t choose your religion teacher over Christ. Place God above and before all things.

In your final paragraph, you said:

I’d rather be condemned attempting to do some good in this world even if it means death. Isn’t that what Christ would have done?

What Christ would have done (and did do) is He would have done good in the world WHILE serving God literally too. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. Why not both? Why not be loving and compassionate, yet at the same time stick with the scriptures and fully serve God?

Because anyone can be nice, or do something nice without following God or the bible. But to do both is perfection in God’s sight, isn’t it? Isn’t that the ultimate goal of the Christian? Isn’t that the ultimate goal of anyone truly seeking God’s will?

To do God’s COMPLETE will as much as possible? Doesn’t that include not only being a good person (love/compassion), but having faith in God and the scriptures, and when necessary defending the faith?

Abraham was counted righteous by his “faith” not his “deeds.” We can never be compassionate enough, or good enough can we? Isn’t that where God’s grace comes into play? To suggest being loving and compassionate is the key to get to heaven completely refutes Christ’s whole purpose. God certainly wants us to be nice and do good things. But is that they key alone? Especially after hearing the gospel?

 Or are we supposed to also have faith in God as presented by the Bible, along with good deeds (loving, etc)?

Many times people get offended by that, especially when you point something out. For example, one time in a forum a Christian was trying to say homosexuality is fine, that we are all God’s people. But when you point out that God certainly doesn’t approve of it, they get mad.

They may even get so mad to the point where they say, “Well, then fine! I don’t want to serve such a mean bully God then!”

But what if I said I didn’t want to be loving? What if I said I didn’t want to be nice? In fact, what if I said I love being a murderer and can’t give it up. You then tell me it is wrong,  and then you said to me, “We must be nice to be like God.”

Couldn’t I turn around and say, “Well I don’t want to serve a God that doesn’t let me get my way in life and murder.” But isn’t that just selfishness on my part? Isn’t that just an example of me wanting to do my will above that of God’s will? It sure is. It is not always easy to do God’s will, that is for sure. But we all have an obligation as servants of Christ to do God’s will.

God bless you, and thanks for the comments!

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If you were going to make a list of people who died SOLELY for the cause of atheism, I’ll bet you will be busy doing a lot of research. Let’s face it, there are very very few (if any) true atheists who die solely for the cause of their religious beliefs. You may be able to find a few sparse instances of atheist martyrs, but even those are ambiguous because it is difficult to prove they died for atheism (and that they were in fact atheists in their exact beliefs).

When I say “religious beliefs,” I am including atheism as a religion. It is a religion in every sense of the word. They have a creation story (evolution), they have faith in it (you can’t see something evolve in a lab, therefore faith is required), and more. So atheism IS a religion, and the sooner you realize that, the better you can understand it. So everyone on Earth has some type of religion (whether they realize it or not). Even an agnostic will generally have a vague set of beliefs about many aspects of life and death.

But how many atheists are really willing to die, only to spread the gospel of atheism or defend it? Not many are there? How many religious people die for their beliefs? Turn on the news, there should be someone in the world that probably did it today (perhaps in the middle east). If not, you shouldn’t have too much trouble finding them throughout history (the bible alone has many records of martyrs).

Why Not More Atheist Martyrs? Why Aren’t They Dying For Their Religion in Greater Numbers?

I asked this on a popular forum today because this has often interested me, and here are the main replies I got:

• Atheists do die in wars, as firefighters, police officers, etc.

My reply to that would be: Oh sure people die every day for something they believe in, or to help someone else out. That isn’t religious martyring though. I mean dying specifically for your beliefs in atheism, not merely for someone else or some other noble cause that has nothing to do with faith. As in willingly risking your life to die solely for atheism. Just like religious people die to defend their belief in God (such as the Apostle Paul, Steven, etc.). Why not more atheists doing that?

• I am Not Stupid Enough to Die. Religious People Are Stupid for Dying for Some God

They are basically saying that when they die, that’s it. Therefore, it would be dumb to martyr themselves, since their life will be over. This proves my point exactly: Atheism isn’t worth dying for! I totally agree with them, it would be stupid to die for atheism (simply because you gain nothing either way).

When a religious person is martyred, they have a potential reward. If God does exist, he will certainly reward those who died defending Him (and I am NOT talking about those crazy suicide bombers). If God doesn’t exist, then the martyr has not really lost anything (considering the fact that we all die in the end anyway). So the God fearing martyr has something to gain, and nothing to lose (except for maybe a few years of life, which is nothing in the grand scheme of things).

But in terms of atheism, they believe nothing happens when you die. So there would be no ultimate reward for being a martyr. Even if they spread their belief of atheism, that too is meaningless in the grand scheme of the universe since life has no meaning or purpose (according to the theory of evolution), and let’s face it, religion will always be here. If there is no God they lose (in terms of the rest of their life they would have had). If there is a God they lose (in terms of judgment).

Are religious people stupid for dying for something they believe in? Not at all, and especially if God does exist (which I truly believe). It shows the complete devotion and trust they have in God, and at least they have something to potentially gain after death. Even if God didn’t exist, who would dare call it stupid to die for something we strongly believe in? If you can’t die for something, you shouldn’t live for something. I live for God, therefore I would die for God. If God doesn’t exist, I don’t particularly want to live anyway in the midst of so much pain, turmoil, and negativity that exists in this life (what is the point).

Some atheists may die for another person, because most of us would agree that it is a reason worth dying. Most believers would gladly do the same, and even hold tight to their faith and die for God if needed. But how many atheists would die for atheism? Again, if it isn’t worth dying for, is it really worth living for?

Why Am I Picking on Atheists Here? There are Other Faiths I Could Pick On

I am certainly not trying to be mean to atheists today or pick on them unfairly (I love you if you are atheist or not). But atheists can be more religious and have more faith sometimes than most Christians I know. For example, I sometimes visit Yahoo Answers. If you are ever on there in their Religion/Spirituality section, you will quickly find that the same people get on day after day.

In fact, it gets far more shocking than that. Not only are there the same atheists on there day after day (usually mocking religion, or spreading evilution lies), but they create multiple accounts, usually stay on there for hours each day, and so forth.

So we have these people who hide behind their computers, create multiple yahoo accounts, and they sit there all day denying God, mocking faith, and so forth. Many even put up websites, make YouTube videos, and so much more. Whew, I have never seen so many devout religious atheists. Does that strike anyone else as odd?

I always find this odd because I don’t believe in a great many things (such as the bogeyman), but I certainly don’t spend hours and hours trying to disprove the bogeyman or debate it. I don’t post bogeyman YouTube videos, I don’t set up sites dedicated to it, I don’t create 10 Yahoo accounts to keep writing about it, and so forth.

I would expect most atheists to simply not believe in God and go on with their lives. However, that isn’t the case. They feel a need to debate, argue, and criticize people on this forum relentlessly.

They also answer questions all day long, evangelizing their atheistic beliefs. I once polled them, and most do this at work (and many work at government type jobs according to them, no wonder there is so much government inefficiency).

Christians should really take note. I know some Christians who don’t do a whole lot to spread the gospel, or to help others in their faith. Yet, these poor atheists spend so many hours day after day to evangelize their religious beliefs. And the whole time they do not even realize that they are even more religious and have more faith than the “believers” they seek to mock for their alleged “irrationality.”

I wonder if it would shock some of these atheists if they could see themselves from an outside perspective. If they could see the hours and hard work they put into trying to disprove that which is by definition immeasurable. If they could see how silly it is to mock people of faith, when they too are of a “faith.”

But again, one thing is surprising: They are so evangelistic and clearly fundamentalists about their faith, but why no (or so few) martyrs throughout history? Again, they believe it, but they aren’t willing to die for (apparently)? So is it really worth evangelizing, if it isn’t worth dying for (or living for)? I don’t think so. Not by a long shot.

Who can really die yelling out the passionate phrase: “There is no God, I evolved and life is meaningless and pointless, and I dedicate my life to that.”

I am also not suggesting that everyone SHOULD be a martyr, or that everyone should die for their faith. It is a tragedy when anyone has to lose their life prematurely. I hope that no one ever has to lay down their life again to support their faith.

I know that while I would gladly die for God, I really don’t look forward to any pain I may feel in the process of death. But I would still die for God if necessary, nonetheless.

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