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UPDATED AGAIN & AGAIN: This post was updated with a reply & my reply below (scroll down to see the newest reply under the dotted line)

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Hello Everyone!

Perhaps one of the biggest issues in religion is that of Jesus Christ. Who is he? What is he? These are all questions all faiths ask. I have studied this issue for a while now. Again, I used to believe in the trinity, but have recently realized it is nothing more than a false doctrine.  Granted, I am still studying the issue, but thus far I have come to the following conclusions about Jesus Christ (of course these are subject to change, but for right now I feel very confident):

1. Jesus is the Son of God (meaning not God the son, but a special creation of God).

2. Jesus is the Messiah (also called Christ or anointed one).

3. I also have various other beliefs which I won’t go into in this article, but to quickly summarize: He died & was resurrected, was sinless, sits at God’s right hand, could perform miracles, etc.

Now, with that being said, I have been sharing my beliefs with others on various forums. I received a question concerning one of my posts, and here is the question highlighted below:

Hello, I read your opinion concerning Jesus=God. Ok, First of all you believe against the Trinity and I agree that there are not three separate beings having separate thoughts but One. However I am convinced that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal to God completely just in different forms. Ok now to address your belief that Jesus is not God but somehow the son of God with a small (s) because you do not believe Him to be the Son of God. How can you deny Jesus as God? I have Scriptures also so please read carefully, bear with me and if you will argue against what Scripture makes clear then I understand and kindly I will not try to persuade or point out any facts to you again. Ok here is part of your argument: “You do realize they are not 1 and the same, right? Jesus has a will, God has a will. Jesus didn’t know his own return, only God does.” You refer, I believe, to John 5:30: “I can of Mine own self do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I seek not Mine own will, but the will of the Father who hath sent Me.”(NKJV).
You must first understand that Jesus calls Himself the Son of the Father and also He calls Himself the Son of Man now both of these tittles are true. How? Jesus came in a fleshly body “Son of Man”[John 5:27], He is also from God being The Divine Seed of God [Matthew 1:20]. See God has never come in the flesh until Jesus, But God has come in different manifestations before in the Old Testament as when He wrestled in a bodily form with Jacob [Genesis 32:24-30]. Furthermore why give Jesus the same type of tittles as the angels have “sons of God”[Job 1:6]. For God has many sons but only One “Son”. The reason why Jesus said that He can not do His own will was simply pointing out that His will is the Father’s will and Jesus has no other will than the Father’s. If Jesus had a different will than God’s then how can He claim that He and the Father are One like in John 10:30?
Also since you claim that they are not the Equal “Jesus=God” then what did Jesus mean by being One with the Father since you think they have different wills and you think that Jesus is not God? Where then is the Oneness? Also you ask “Why would God grant Himself the right hand of Power if He already has it?” well Jesus came from the Father as He said and also that He would return to the Father as He did. Doesn’t that also mean that He would regain the Glory which He had from the beginning including the Power and knowledge of  His return? Do not be fooled for Jesus was in a body made of flesh and although He was God He also limited Himself by being in the flesh as well. Did you not read what John the Baptist said concerning Jesus? “For He whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God, for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him.” that verse means that Jesus had the fullness of the Holy Spirit (God’s Spirit) and not a measured amount.
Why do you suppose Jesus prayed to Himself if you are like me and believe that Jesus is God? Jesus was completely without sin do you agree? search the entire New Testament and you will find that to be true. In Psalms 150:6 the Scripture declares ” Let everything that hath breath praise the LORD! Praise ye the LORD!”. Did Jesus not have breath? Yes He did. So why would He not praise Himself with that breath?  Do you agree that there is a Godhead? There is and in Jesus dwells the fullness of the Godhead in a bodily form, “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, following the tradition of men according to the rudiments of the world, and not in accordance with Christ. For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. [Colossians 2:8-9] NKJV”. I do hope this helps you because you think that if you change Who Jesus is then you can make yourself understand the bible instead of asking God to reveal to you the truth concerning Jesus Christ.
Let this ring clearly in your mind that he who denies the Son denies also the Father (in fact) he who has the Son has the Father also. I am a friend of God and I hope dearly that you do not teach to others against Jesus’ position as the King of kings and the Lord of lords. Why else, if indeed you are a Christian do you think we say Jesus is Lord? Did the Old Testament declare that the Father whom the Jews call their God is Lord? Likewise you should now know that Jesus is Lord and to know Jesus Christ is to know the Father. It is a dangerous thing to think Jesus is separate from the Father. Do you know God? How can you know God if you do not know the Son? I challenge you to read the bible and find where Jesus declares what Eternal Life is. Thank you and I hope you do respond. This is indeed a letter to persuade you to cling to Jesus equally as you would to God and give Jesus the same honor as you would God. Jesus is perfect and He said and continue to say that the Lord your God is One and you shall love the Lord your God with all your mind, heart, and strength. Jesus says also that we should give Him that same honor [John 5:23]. Why would He say that and then command us to honor Him equally you might ask. Because Jesus is Lord and God forever and ever. You can write me an E-mail through my Yahoo Answers Profile or post it on your blog.

This is a long question, and a complicated subject so bear with me here. I will copy your individual questions from above, and try to answer them one at a time. Okay, so here we go:

Hello, I read your opinion concerning Jesus=God. Ok, First of all you believe against the Trinity and I agree that there are not three separate beings having separate thoughts but One. However I am convinced that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal to God completely just in different forms.

Okay, people have different views of the trinity. Some say there are 3 different entities, but together they make up 1 God. Some say that all parts of the trinity are God, and that Jesus, the Father, and Spirit are all just different manifestations of 1 God. You seem to suggest the 2nd view, that they are all 1, and you say they even have the same thoughts, but I suppose they are somehow mysteriously appearing in different forms/manifestations.  It is just as easy to disprove logically, scripturally, etc. So let’s keep going.

The reason why Jesus said that He can not do His own will was simply pointing out that His will is the Father’s will and Jesus has no other will than the Father’s.

Does Jesus Have a Different Will Than God?

Jesus Absolutely had a different mind & will than God.  The quote you showed above shows that clearly. There is no question about this, and Jesus’ own lips say this. He clearly points out in his prayer “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” (Luke 22:42).  It is painfully obvious that Jesus is pleading with his Father God right before his execution/trial. If you can’t see that from this verse and see they are 2 different things, then I don’t know what will do it. It is right there in black & white.

Why would God talk to himself and beg himself to spare his own life? To teach the apostles? Yeah right, they are even asleep! That makes no sense whatsoever. If Jesus=God as you are trying to imagine in your mind, then this whole thing shows God is insane. I don’t believe that for one second.

Did Jesus Know All Things God Knows? He Should if He is 100% God, Right?

Jesus didn’t know things God knew. Again, HIS OWN LIPS SAY THIS. I can’t stress that enough. The disciples asked when the 2nd coming is. What did Jesus say? ““But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the son, but My Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

This clearly proves Jesus didn’t know things God knew. This isn’t the only case the bible mentions, either. Jesus didn’t know a fig tree didn’t have fruit until he got there (and then cursed it for not having any). Now, I will admit Jesus did know some things that indicated he had some special knowledge. But there are 2 reasons for this:

1. God granted him knowledge of SOME things, not all (Just like God granted him the ability to perform miracles, which Jesus clearly says God granted this).
2. Even other prophets new events about the future, and even special knowledge (for example: Elijah told a woman the flour would last long enough, etc.).

If you try to use the argument that it was because he was “in the flesh” and that is why he didn’t know some things, then I am going to come right back with “Well then why was he able to know other things & even perform miracles.” See, he was either 100% God ALL THE TIME as you indicate, or he was less than God. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say he didn’t know the return because he was flesh, but then say he did miracles and other things because he was God. You can’t pick & choose here when He is God and when he is flesh on the same topics. Are miracles of the flesh? No, they are granted by God. Just as Jesus points out, all of his knowledge, power, authority, etc. is GRANTED by God.

What Did Jesus Mean About Being “One with the Father?”

I have no idea how people come to confuse this passage as Jesus trying to say he is God. He isn’t. Here is the CORRECT interpretation of what Jesus is trying to say.

He is saying that since he is doing God’s will (and not his own that he has), he is one with the father. In fact, this is mentioned several times in the bible, and clearly being ‘one’ with someone doesn’t mean you=them. Here is an example of a prayer Jesus prayed to HIS God:

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.” (John 17:20-21)

So, according to your logic, since Jesus is praying that the disciples will be ”ONE” just like he & the father are one, does that mean the disciples are God too? Does that mean 1 disciple=another? Does it make them the same person? Absolutely NOT.  By the way, the disciples all have a different will, right? Yet Jesus is praying that they are one. Jesus absolutely had his own will, but he CHOSE to do God’s will. We must all do the same. Set aside our will, and follow God’s.

By the way, notice what Jesus said above. “For those who will believe in me.” The Jews already believed in God. Why would God be praying to himself that they believe in him? Jesus is saying that he hopes people will believe he is the MESSIAH & Son of God. Not God. They already believed in God. What Jesus is trying to do is convince them that he is the Messiah that they have been waiting for so long.

Don’t get too excited about Jesus saying “God is in me, and I am in him.” The bible says the same thing about us. It says in 1 John 4:16: 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.  God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. So if we love, we are in God, and God is in us, just the same with Jesus & God.

The bible says this in Genesis: A man may leave his mother & father, and cleave to his wife & become ONE flesh. Does this mean a man becomes his wife? Does this mean John=Jane? No. So this verse is just absolutely NOT saying he is God.

So again, I think that is enough on this “one” business. One doesn’t mean “Equals.” Jesus was one with God, not THE GOD.

What Does the Son of God Mean? Does that Mean You Are God? What About Son of Man?

This is what you say:

Ok now to address your belief that Jesus is not God but somehow the son of God with a small (s) because you do not believe Him to be the Son of God. How can you deny Jesus as God?

I do actually use a big S when I say Son of God. Not meaning Jesus is God, but meaning that he is a special creation of God. If I used a little s in some question, then it was probably a typo.

Anyways, this particular phrase is not a new thing to the bible. It is used to describe Kings, Angels, the expected Messiah (Jesus), and more. Son of man is also used in the bible (Ezekiel is called this by God). So neither one of these titles are new, and neither one mean anything other than what Jesus said: He was the Son of God, and the Messiah. He was indeed both the son of man (human flesh), and also the son of God (the messiah/king/special creation of God). What Jesus is saying is that he has a special relationship with God, above all others. They considered this blasphemy & wanted to kill him because of this. They NEVER thought he was claiming to be God, they only thought he was claiming to be the Messiah (King of Jews), and hated it because he made it sound like he had some special relationship with God, and existed before coming to Earth.

Nothing there implies that Jesus is saying he is God, God the son, or any other nonsense. He uses this term very often to describe himself. By the way, if this is God, don’t you think he would have said, “Israel, I am the LORD GOD, bow down to me?” Of course. Anytime God manifested himself he CLEARLY identified himself as GOD. Not God the burning bush. Not God the whirlwind.  Not God the dove from heaven. It was simply God. Even when Jesus got baptized, God said “This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased.”

So you mean to tell me God is pleased with himself? You mean that these 2 things are the exact same, just different manifestations? That makes no sense whatsoever.

I don’t deny that Jesus is perhaps a special creation of God. It says he is the firstborn of all creation. It says God created the world through Christ. So it is not biblically inaccurate to assume Jesus had pre-existance in heaven as a spiritual being. Was he an angel? I don’t know what he was. But it is obvious who he was not, and that is God the father.

Why Would God Grant Himself Power, Authority, etc.?

Also you ask “Why would God grant Himself the right hand of Power if He already has it?” well Jesus came from the Father as He said and also that He would return to the Father as He did. Doesn’t that also mean that He would regain the Glory which He had from the beginning including the Power and knowledge of  His return? Do not be fooled for Jesus was in a body made of flesh and although He was God He also limited Himself by being in the flesh as well. Did you not read what John the Baptist said concerning Jesus? “For He whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God, for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him.” that verse means that Jesus had the fullness of the Holy Spirit (God’s Spirit) and not a measured amount.

First, just let me say that being filled with the spirit of God doesn’t make you God. The bible repeatedly says disciples were filled with the spirit, we can be filled with the spirit, etc. So that last part means nothing in the way of saying Jesus=God.

Again, you are making the mistake that Jesus is merely returning to his previous state in heaven, and that since he is “flesh” he can’t do everything on Earth. So he can perform miracles and anything else, but yet when something doesn’t make sense you say it is because of the flesh. That isn’t the case.  You can’t say he is 100% God for miracles, but then when he can’t do something blame the same thing on the flesh.

And Jesus is the same state in heaven, he doesn’t magically turn back into God. It says in heaven God granting Jesus authority. It shows Jesus taking scrolls from God. It shows Jesus being setup at God’s kingdom to reign at God’s right hand. It is not as you are trying to say that God is glory in Heaven, comes to Earth as a man, and then we he gets back to heaven he is immediately God again. That is NOT what the scriptures teach.

This just doesn’t make sense here. The whole bible shows Jesus praising God, worshiping God, saying God is greater, etc. He says God gives him his power (not that he gives himself his power). He says he inherits the kingdom from God. You CANNOT inherit something you already own. God already has the world in his hands. How could he inherit power or authority? God IS power. God IS authority. How could he sit at his own right hand? How come he is still in heaven & the new Earth in Revelation?

Okay, so what you are trying to do is “gloss over” the scriptures that clearly show Jesus & God being 2 separate things, EVEN IN HEAVEN!! This is what I can’t understand about your view. At least the trinitarians who say they are 3 different things, but make up 1 God can survive this argument a little better (although they are still easily disproven). But you believe there is 1 God, and he is merely manifesting as different stuff. This blows your view into pieces, and there is no logical way to explain it.

But this isn’t true that Jesus=God. Why? Because, as I will show you, the bible makes it ABUNDANTLY clear that Jesus is still in heaven when God is there too. In other words, they don’t fuse back into the same being. They are separate, and remain this way forever.

Undeniable Scriptural Proof that Jesus & God are 2 Separate Things, Even in Heaven:

1. Jesus said in John 20:17: “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my father & your father, to my God & your God. [notice how God never speaks of his creation as brothers, but always children, yet Jesus calls us brothers & sisters]. This clearly shows Jesus has a God, and is not a “manifestation.” God has no God, and had to swear by himself in Abraham because God is the highest, he didn’t swear by the Son or Holy Spirit.
2. 1 Timothy 2:5 says, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” This clearly makes a distinction between God & Jesus. Jesus is the Messiah, the High Priest, the King of the Jews, etc. He is a mediator between us & God. If you believe Jesus is God, then this means God is the mediator between God & man. It just makes no sense. A mediator is someone who talks on your behalf. A mediator for an attorney talks to both people for you. So again, 2 different things here.
3. When Stephen is being stoned, he saw a vision: Acts 7:55: But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into Heaven and saw the Glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. See, right here, they are 2 things AFTER Jesus has ascended to Heaven. If Jesus was just God manifesting himself, why in the world would he still be manifesting in Heaven as a separate entity? It makes no sense….unless of course they are 2 different beings as the bible (not men) teaches. Then it makes perfect sense.
4. The whole book of Revelation makes distinction between God & Jesus (the lamb). By the way, Jesus is in heaven at this point, and guess what the first  lines of Revelation says, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD gave him to show his servants.” See, this is what you can’t grasp. God is still granting Jesus stuff in heaven. If you think God=Jesus, this all makes no sense. Why would God be “granting” himself something, and staying in 2 manifestations simultaneously?
5. In Revelation 5, God is sitting on the throne holding scrolls. God asks who is worthy to open them, and no one comes forth. But wait… Then Jesus (the lamb) is standing between the throne (which God is seated), and between the four living elders. Then, get this, Jesus walks up to God & takes the scroll from his hand. Now, this is in the future, and in heaven. This is as clear as day. It shows without a doubt, even in heaven, Jesus & God are INTERACTING. Why would God be handing himself something? God could open the scroll at any time. It just makes no sense how you say they are the same. Picture a man on a throne, and another person taking a scroll from them. Can you really try to rationalize & say that both men are the same person? It makes no sense.
6. Look what Revelation says for all of eternity: Rev 21:23: “And the City has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the lamb.” Again, 2 different things. God is the glory, the lamb is right there with him. Then in Rev. 22:1 “Then the angel showed me the river of water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God AND of the Lamb. Hence, 2 thrones, and it doesn’t use language such as, “the throne of God, who IS the lamb”. Just as Jesus says, he sits at God’s right hand on a throne. This is literal throne. It does NOT just simply mean authority or something else. It is a LITERAL throne, and Jesus is seated at God’s right hand.

All of the above clearly show they are 2 different things. I don’t see how anyone can overcome those scriptures, unless they ignore them, or simply deny them. I trust scripture teaching, not man’s teachings. My views on Jesus are not a “mystery” nor a “contradiction.”

Why Did Jesus Pray To Himself, and What Is a Godhead?

Here is another part of your question:

Why do you suppose Jesus prayed to Himself if you are like me and believe that Jesus is God? Jesus was completely without sin do you agree? search the entire New Testament and you will find that to be true. In Psalms 150:6 the Scripture declares ” Let everything that hath breath praise the LORD! Praise ye the LORD!”. Did Jesus not have breath? Yes He did. So why would He not praise Himself with that breath?

Do you agree that there is a Godhead? There is and in Jesus dwells the fullness of the Godhead in a bodily form, “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, following the tradition of men according to the rudiments of the world, and not in accordance with Christ. For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. [Colossians 2:8-9] NKJV”. I do hope this helps you because you think that if you change Who Jesus is then you can make yourself understand the bible instead of asking God to reveal to you the truth concerning Jesus Christ.

First, why do I suppose Jesus prayed to God? It is very simple. God is the highest authority. Jesus isn’t God. He said he had a God. His God is the father of all things. It all makes sense.

Unless you say Jesus=God. Then it makes no sense. He is praying to himself? What? I don’t think so. You are trying to say that because Psalms says everything that has a breath should praise God, then that is why Jesus pleaded with God in prayer, and prayed constantly? Praying to God isn’t “Praising” God (first of all). So this scripture does nothing to show why Jesus is praying. Secondly, he is praying when his disciples aren’t around or are asleep, so don’t try to use the whole “he is showing them something” argument.

You simply can’t explain the prayer thing, but if you can realize that Jesus isn’t God, it makes total and perfect sense. Everything flows right along. He even praises God in heaven. Why? Because God is the greatest of all things. He is all-powerful. Jesus isn’t. Jesus’ powers are limited to what God grants him. Period.

What Is a Godhead? A 3-headed God Monster?

Okay, now about the Godhead. What is a Godhead anyways? Does that mean God is a 3 headed monster like trinitarians want us to believe? No. In fact, this word is very seldomly used. So let us examine the original Greek word, and the meaning of the word.

The original Greek word is theiotes. If we look up the definition, it will say it means any of the following: Divinity or divine qualities, having the nature or qualities that are like God, Godlike, Deity.

So that verse could be saying 1 of 2 things:

1. Jesus was filled with God’s spirit. That means nothing remotely the same as saying Jesus=God. Again, we can be filled with the holy spirit. We can be filled with theiotes. That doesn’t make us God. We can be in God & God can be in us. That doesn’t make us God.
2. It is saying simply that Jesus was divine. Divine does  NOT =God. Divine means pure. Jesus was pure, he never sinned. I absolutely believe Jesus was divine, but not God.

So either way you slice it, this verse is certainly not a very good one to try to prove Jesus is God. Especially when the whole other bible makes it clear he isn’t, including Jesus’ own lips on several occasions! Furthermore, the bible consistently tells us God is in us if we follow his commands, and we are in God. Again, this DOES NOT make us God.

Should We Honor Jesus Like We Honor God?

Of course we should honor (obey, respect) Jesus just like we are to honor God, our parents, etc. In fact, the bible also says this in 1Peter 2:17: Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the Emperor.

All Jesus is trying to say is to listen & respect his teachings as you would honor & respect God. Why? Because as Jesus clearly says, his teachings came from God. He was teaching God’s word. If you honor Jesus, you honor the one who sent Jesus (God Almighty). If you denied Christ’s teachings, you denied God’s word. Just like if you denied Moses’ teachings, you denied God’s word because God was working through Moses (ie, the ten commandments).

Let me point out what this SHOULD have said if Jesus=God. Worship me as you Worship God. For behold: I am God. If Jesus said that, then you could say that he was saying he is God. But he doesn’t say that. He tells us to honor him. Nothing more.

This isn’t unusual. In fact, the Jewish Messiah is going to be honored. It says every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord (King/Messiah). King David was honored by people all the time. Yet Christ is even greater than King David or any Prophet. He is THE MESSIAH. The Christ, the King, the Son of the living God.

Is Jesus Lord? What Does Lord Mean Anyways? Does it Make Jesus God?

Of course Jesus is Lord, but he is not the Lord God. There is a huge difference between the 2. The Greek word used for “lord” is Kurios. Here is what the definition of Kurios means:

1. Is a title of honor expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master

2. he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord

3. the possessor and disposer of a thing
the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor

Of course Jesus has authority over us. God Granted him that authority (as Jesus clearly said). Master, Lord, etc. all just mean they have authority over you. Even Sarah Called Abraham “Master & Lord, etc.” It does not mean you are God. The Lord God means God. The lord by itself can mean “the master, the king, the authority, etc.”

Jesus is “Lord of Lords and King of Kings” meaning that he is the ultimate authority over all Earthly Lords & Kings. He is the highest on Earth, second only to God. Why? God Granted this to power to Jesus. Why? Because he proved worthy of it by following God’s commands, rejecting sin, etc. The Jewish Messiah was always supposed to be the highest authority for eternity below God. Just as King David was given authority to judge & rule Israel, the Messiah will judge and rule the whole world! He is truly King of Kings & Lord of Lords.

I have no idea why people get hung up on the word “Lord” when it is used to reference kings, husbands, and everything else. It absolutely is not trying to say Jesus is God.

Did Jesus’ Own Lips Ever Say He Was God? Who Did Jesus Say He Was?

Again, Jesus NEVER says this, and not only does he NOT say he is God, but he even DENIED it. I can’t stress that enough. You are trying to really twist verses to try and prove Jesus is God. It just doesn’t work. If you do that, it makes no logical sense, and it is quite clear they are separate.

Verses that Prove Jesus Thinks God is Greater, Separate, etc.:

• John 14:28 Jesus said “My Father (GOD) is greater than I
• Mark 10:18 Jesus said “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”?
• John 8:28 Jesus said “I do nothing of myself”?
• 1 Corinthians 8:6 “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”
• Mark 15:34 says “And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
• John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?
• Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death?
• John 1:18 he said “No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him..”
• Luke 22:29: “and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom.”

Jesus was making claims in John 10. He says (27) “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me….My father who has given them to me is greater than ALL. I and the Father are one.”

They picked up stones because Jesus was making claims of great authority, and even says he has a direct & special relationship with God. He is “one” with God (but not God like I pointed out above).

So then they pick up stones and say, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

So how does Jesus respond? He quickly claims he isn’t The God, but a ‘god,’ just like the Pharisees were called ‘gods’. Jesus says (John 10:34), ” Is it not written in your law, “I said ye are gods.?” If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and scripture cannot be broken—do you say of him (Jesus) whom God sent into the world, “You are blaspheming” because I said I was the  Son of God?”

See, this clearly says 2 things: First, Jesus says that their own law said anyone who preached God’s word was a “god” meaning (authority). Then, he says He isn’t saying he is THE GOD, but the Son of God—simply because he was sent by God, and was preaching his word. This is Jesus own lips here. If he was God, he could have set the record straight right here. But he doesn’t. In fact, he clarifies what he means by calling himself the Son of God. He says because he was sent by God, and preaches God’s word. That is crystal clear in this passage.

Does Calling Jesus the Son of God & Messiah (but not God) Deny Him?

You said that if I denied Jesus, then I denied the father. Here is what you don’t understand. I accept Jesus for what Jesus & the bible taught: The Messiah & Son of God. How in the world is that denying him?

Nowhere in the bible does it say we must believe Jesus is God. NOWHERE! In fact, it says all we have to believe is that he is the Son of God & Messiah. In fact, Jesus asked Simon Peter who he thought he was. He replied, I think you are the Messiah & Son of the Living God. This made Jesus HAPPY!  There is no mention of Jesus being God in any of this.

Jesus wanted everyone to believe he was the Messiah, the Son of God. Nothing more, nothing less. You try to claim that if you doubt the trinity or that Jesus=God, you somehow deny Jesus. Huh? I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord, Messiah, Savior, Sacrifice, Son of God, Son of Man, and everything else he said. How is that denying Jesus? Show me where it says that if you don’t accept him as GOD, you are denying him…The only thing I deny is a man-made doctrine that tries to make Jesus into an God the Father.

That is like saying that if you don’t believe Moses is God, you are denying him. It makes no sense because Moses didn’t say he was God. Why should I believe that? But I do accept Moses, I just don’t accept he was God. I also follow, believe in, accept, cherish, and love the Messiah & Son of God. But I don’t believe he is God for the same reason I don’t think Abraham or Moses was God….The bible doesn’t teach it!

Remember what God said about holding anyone above Him? It is called Idolatry, and he doesn’t like it very much.

So bear with me for a second: Let me show you mathematically your beliefs:

You believe the following:

Jesus=God, God=God, Holy Spirit=God, and that they are all the same. Here is how this can be expressed mathematically:

Jesus=X, God=X, and Holy Spirit=X. In other words, they are all the same thing, and have no other mind. So if I believe in (X), and Jesus is really God (X), then it doesn’t matter. I believed in God (X), and Jesus was (X). They are the same thing. How could God fault me? I accept what the bible says, which is that he is the Son of God & Messiah. I followed his word. I follow God’s laws. I repent of my sin. I believe Jesus died & was resurrected by God almighty. Simple! That is the gospel in a nutshell.

However, if you are wrong (as I suggest), then the formula would be this for Jesus/God. Jesus=Y, God=X.  X doesn’t equal Y. X>Y.

Therefore, if you believe Jesus is God, and you are wrong, then you have committed idolatry. You have placed Jesus Equal to or above God, and made him God Almighty and Denied the True God (the father). Remember who Jesus told us to worship (hint: It wasn’t Jesus himself, but ONLY the father: “You shall worship the  Lord your God and only him shall you serve.” Those are Jesus own words. Jesus also told us to worship the Father (notice he didn’t say the Son), in spirit & truth.

So if the scriptures are not 100% clear that Jesus is God (which they aren’t), and all of the verses that try to claim Jesus is God are easily disproven (which they are and most any bible scholar will agree), and the bible never says we MUST believe Jesus=God (it doesn’t), and on top of all of that—Trying to make Jesus=God makes no sense any way you try to rationalize it (whether you say the are the same, or 3 separate things that form 1 God). Why on Earth would anyone keep believing this? I just don’t get it??

It isn’t necessary for salvation to say Jesus=God. It doesn’t ever come out and say he is God directly, and Jesus even denies & explains why he calls himself the Son of God.

It makes no sense why Jesus would still exist for eternity if he is just a mere manifestation of God. Do we go up to the one throne in Revelation and say “hey God,” and then to the throne Jesus sits on and also say, “Hey God.” It makes no sense. They are 2 separate beings. They both exist for eternity. Don’t you grasp that?

The Proper Chain of Command:

God > Jesus > Us. In other words God has the greatest authority, Jesus is next, and we are last.

Think of it like this: CEO > Manager > employee. The bible even point this out and says this:

However, I want you to realize that Christ has authority over every man, a husband has authority over his wife, and God has authority over Christ. 1 Corinthians 11:3.

Clearly right here in black & white (once again) we see who has the authority. This isn’t just while Jesus was “flesh” or “part man.” This is for ETERNITY. This scripture is written AFTER Jesus is already seated at God’s right hand.

Conclusion: Is Jesus God? Is the Trinity True or a False Doctrine?

It is quite clear that Jesus is NOT God. He never claims it, and even denies it on 2 occasions. He says God is greater. The bible says God is the authority over Christ, and Christ has authority over us.

The trinity is a false doctrine created long after Jesus & the apostles were gone. It tries to make Jesus into God Almighty, which is skating dangerously close to idolatry. It makes no sense. It is completely illogical any way you view it (whether you say they are 3 separate entities that make up 1 God, or whether you say it is 1 God simply “manifesting in different forms.”).

Again, any way you slice it, it is bogus, makes no sense, and contradicts itself leaving questions that no one can logically answer. Why can no one really answer those tough questions and have to default and say “it is a mystery..”?? Because it isn’t true. It is like me trying to say this: Make a square into a circle, and keep calling it a square. They are 2 different things!

I DO NOT mean this in any way to take the glory or authority away from Jesus or God. I am doing this to CORRECT the position of Jesus & God. God is the Almighty, the authority over us all. Give praise to God.

Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, the High Priest, The Mediator, the Great Prophet, the Teacher, the Rabbi, who followed God’s will, and will serve God in eternity as the King over God’s creation. Give praise to the Messiah & Son of the Living God.

If you actually try to consider what I am trying to teach here, it makes sense. It makes the bible crystal clear. It doesn’t leave you with a mysterious view of what God is that makes no sense at all. It is very clear, God is one. Jesus is God’s servant. Period. They are 2 different things.

Sorry for the long article, but I really appreciate your question. I don’t deny Christ, I follow his teachings. He knew the father. But I do not FALSELY believe Jesus=God. That is man made, false doctrine.

By the way, this view that I am  talking about is the truth. Even the early church believed this before the “Council at Nicea” came along. This whole Jesus=God thing wasn’t even a major issue at all. They knew the truth. As does anyone who logically thinks about this & examines any verses in the proper greek & the proper context.

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Update: Here is your reply to my points above:

I thank you for answering promptly. I see that you have made up in your own mind concerning this issue. Well lets look into this a little deeper. Hebrews 1:4-8 concerning Jesus. I see that you used a quote from Hebrews in your answer to me and so shall I: 4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Ok wait, here we see that God (Father) says “Let the angels worship Him (Son) and here I am only pointing out that yes everything must worship the Lord God and Him only which is why we can and are suppose to worship Jesus and honor Jesus just as the Father. Also if you read it closely you will see that the author of Hebrews also reveals that God (Father) acknowledges His Son as God when He says to His Son “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.” Even David under the influence under the Holy Spirit said “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” Wait there is more in John 5:18: 18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.” Yes that is right Jesus was equal “=” to God and He knew what He was saying when He also said “Before Abraham was I AM”. If you read you will find that Jesus was saying that He was there before Abraham but not only that but also that He was the God who talked to Moses in Exodus 3:14:
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Ok you might ask where did Jesus say that He was “I AM” well lets go into the New Testament. John 8:58-59:
58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. Even the Jews knew who Jesus was claiming to be which is why they took up stones to cast at Him. Also you should read in the Book of Revelations where how many times Jesus says that He is the First and the Last and also that He is Alpha and Omega. As I stated before you have already made up in your own mind to force the Scriptures to make sense to you but you should not change the Scriptures and place aside one Scripture for the other one as they all fit in harmony if you do indeed have the Holy Spirit inside you then God will bring spiritual sense. Also I read how you mocked at the fact that the disciples were asleep and so how was the Scriptures meant for them to see that He was in flesh when he prayed to the Father “Your will be done”. I say to you then how do you know and I even know about that prayer unless it was revealed to someone by the Holy Spirit what was said by Jesus? It was Just as the large rock was rolled away when Jesus rose. Was it rolled back for Jesus to get out? No, for It was moved for the sake of the disciples to see how He had risen even testified by angels. There is much more but I will stop here. Thank you.

First off, thank you very much for your courteous reply. It is so nice being able to talk about these religious topics without getting angry at one another, or insulting one another. So I really appreciate that!

You said it looks like I have made up my mind on the issue. Let me clarify my stance. It isn’t that I just have made my mind rock solid on this particular point. It is just that I have reviewed this subject quite a bit over the past few months, and to me the bible doesn’t give enough of a strong indication Jesus is God. When you study any “iffy” verse in the context & alternate translations, it becomes clear that it probably isn’t saying Jesus is God at all.

I grew up in a home that was semi-religious, meaning I had a single mother who would reference God, but at the same time, I didn’t attend church and so forth. When I was in my teens, I attended a Baptist church for a while (which teaches the Trinity). In my early 20′s I really started to doubt things. I went to agnostic, then slowly to atheism. My life wasn’t getting better! I was miserable, and felt like life was pointless. Then I said to myself one day, “I am going to look very closely at this religious stuff to see if God really exists or not. I am going to look at all sides of every issue with complete objectivity.”

Fast forward to today, and I very deeply believe in God. However, I am still learning & searching more issues. It isn’t that I am 100% convinced Jesus isn’t God. It is just that so far, the view that I have (which is shared by many other denominations & independent scholars/Christians), is that the scripture doesn’t make a very strong case at all that Jesus=God.  If I were wrong on this issue, I would immediately change my views & admit I was wrong. That is the kind of person I am. I gladly admit my own mistakes & faults. But with this situation, I have already studied almost every scripture you have (and probably will) bring up, looking at both sides & the original translations, and I am still not convinced. That being said, let us continue:

Does Hebrews Chapter 1 Prove Jesus Is Worshipe & Is God?

Well lets look into this a little deeper. Hebrews 1:4-8 concerning Jesus. I see that you used a quote from Hebrews in your answer to me and so shall I: 4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Ok wait, here we see that God (Father) says “Let the angels worship Him (Son) and here I am only pointing out that yes everything must worship the Lord God and Him only which is why we can and are suppose to worship Jesus and honor Jesus just as the Father. Also if you read it closely you will see that the author of Hebrews also reveals that God (Father) acknowledges His Son as God when He says to His Son “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

First, let us consider what this chapter is trying to do. Paul wrote this (presumably), and he is trying to convince us that indeed God spoke through Christ, and we should listen because Christ is even greater than the prophets of the past. So lets examine the first part of it:

In the very first verse (which you didn’t happen to mention), once again, Paul points out that in Hebrews 1:2 “..but in these last days he has spoken to us by His Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.”

Again, let me point out a few things. God spoke through his Son (Jesus), just like he did the prophets. Were the prophets also God? No. Next he once again tells us that God has appointed Christ HEIR of all things. What you don’t seem to understand again (and you have yet to provide an answer), is why is God granting himself something, if God already has all things? Why would God grant himself power? How is God an heir to something he already owns? That is what you aren’t realizing. They are 2 different things.

It also said God created all things THROUGH Christ. This clearly shows that Christ acts as an agent for God. God did things through angels, through prophets, and Paul is showing he has done thing THROUGH Christ. Again, clearly this shows 2 different things. Let’s keep going through this, because I noticed that not only have you ignored the whole context of this passage, but you cut off the first part of the part you quoted (which clearly once again says Jesus “….Sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on High..”. Again, you are ignoring all scriptures that show they are 2 different things. But again, not only will I show those, but I will directly address the ones you think mean Jesus=The God.

4Being made {other versions say “having become”} so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Notice that it says Jesus was “made” or “having become.” If you know scripture, you know God was never “made.” He has no creator. Christ has a creator, God Almighty. If Christ “became” better than the angels, then that ABSOLUTELY shows he isn’t God. God has ALWAYS been better than the angels. Period. He created them! He didn’t inherit a position greater than the angels as it is saying Christ did. Next, it says Christ was made “so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.”

What this is saying is consistent with the whole bible. God “exalts” Christ, and puts him in authority over even the angels. Notice that word “inheritance” again. Can THE God inherit something He already owns? No. See what I mean? Next:

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Paul is saying that God has a unique relationship with Christ. He points out the fact that he never calls any other of the angels his only begotten son except for Christ. He calls the angels his “sons.” But he calls Christ his “only begotten” son. Again, notice that word “begotten.” Remember, it means made, produced, created, etc. God isn’t made, Christ is. So this actually strenthens the case that I claim Christ had a beginning at some point in time, and God created Christ, therefore, isn’t Christ.

Also, this shows us that Christ was “Begotten” before he came into this world. It says, when he brung the first begotten son into the world. If he was “brung” into the world, yet already begotten, this again shows he is talking that Christ was already a created thing, and he was merely sent to Earth & became flesh.

Now, that last part, “worship.” I will make a few points on this, because many try to prove that because this says the angels “worship” Christ, it proves he is God.  This is wrong for several reasons as I will outline below:

1. This is just showing that Christ has superiority over the angels. The angels were thought to have great authority in heaven, and Paul is simply trying to show that God has even lifted Christ’s authority over the angels. That is all this is trying to show, Christ has more authority than angels (but certainly not God).
2. The Greek word used here is “Proskuneo.” This word is used literally means, “to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence/respect;  by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is not a sin to bow down to someone to show respect. King David had people do this to him in at least 2 or 3 different places in the OT (1 Chronicles 29:20, 1 Samuel 25:23-24). Does this mean King David=God too? Of course not. All it means is Christ has authority over even the angels. Who gave him this authority? God (as it clealy says). Again, what you seem to miss is that God doesn’t need authority “given” or “granted” to himself, he already has it! Christ “gained” something, even once he was in heaven.
3. I find it remarkable that in not 1 case in the bible do we hear that Jesus says, “Worship me.” Not one time. The only time he mentions a knee bowing (just like they did to David), is when he returns with authority from God, and every knee shall bow & every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord (King). That is the only time! Any other time people were bowing down to Christ, they did it on their own will, to show the deep love, respect that Christ deserved as the Messiah (king) and Son of God.
4. The Jews are very serious about God being 1. And in the OT there is  prophecy about the Messiah that says “Every knee will bow.” Yet, the Jews ABSOLUTELY do not believe the actual Messiah=God. He is supposed to be an eternal “King/Lord/Messiah” over them. This is exactly what Jesus is. So if the Jews were going to bow & show respect to the Messiah, yet weren’t worshiping him, why do you assume when people do this to Jesus it means worship? Again, they did the same thing to King David, and many others

Does Hebrews 1:8 Prove Jesus is God?

7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Ok wait, here we see that God (Father) says “Let the angels worship Him (Son) and here I am only pointing out that yes everything must worship the Lord God and Him only which is why we can and are suppose to worship Jesus and honor Jesus just as the Father. Also if you read it closely you will see that the author of Hebrews also reveals that God (Father) acknowledges His Son as God when He says to His Son “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

I already addressed the whole “worship” issue above, and any Greek scholar will tell you exactly what I told you, and if you look up those verses, you will see that bowing the knee doesn’t mean you are “worshiping” Jesus as if he were God.

So to address this whole, “God is calling Jesus “God” part: I have several things to say about this verse:

1. At first this verse looks interesting and it even appears that perhaps Jesus really is God, that is, until you realize what is going on. Do you think this verse is new to the bible? It isn’t. In fact, Paul has copied it word for word from Psalms 45:6.  Now, the interesting thing that is going on here is again, God is calling King David God. Does that mean King David=God? No, of course not. The bible also calls Satan God (2 Corinthians 4:4).  In fact, Moses is even called God BY God Himself in Exodus 7:1, ” Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.” Just because Moses is made a “God” before Pharaoh, does that make him also above God Almighty? Of course not!
2. Again, this is messianic verse, showing that just as King David was God’s servant, and also his King, and even called a God by the God Almighty, Christ too will be the Messiah, & King, with great power & authority. Just like God granted Moses, King David, etc. the power, he also grants Christ this power. This doesn’t mean they are “The God.” God is simply showing them he has given them God-like authority.  This reference in the New Testament signifies that God’s glory is present under King David’s leadership. It does NOT mean King David=God, Jesus=God, or anything else.
3. But then, the funny thing is that once again, you ignore the rest of the verse. Even though God Almighty calls the messiah “God” (just like he did David & Moses), he goes on to finish it by saying in Hebrews 1:9 “You have loved righteousness & hated wickedness, therefore God, your God has annointed you with oil & gladness beyond your companions.” This CLEARLY shows God Almighty is “Christ’s God.” He says, “YOUR GOD” has annointed you. God has no higher God. Christ has a God (as Jesus says with his own lips countless times in the scriptures). So this clearly shows when you read the whole verse that even IF God is calling Christ a God (just like he has called other people at times in scriptures), it is quite clear that he isn’t calling Jesus “The God.” Anyone being honest and reading that will see it. And he goes on to make this clear by saying to Christ, “your God has annointed you.”
4. So again, this verse is taken from the Old Testament, was said to David as well (Jesus Kingdom will parallel King David’s, and the messiah is a descendant of King David). It does nothign to prove Jesus=God, and even finishes with God saying he is “Christ’s God.” Not only that, but almost every verse before & after this 1 isolated verse clearly makes a distinction between the two. So to think this means Jesus=God is to ignore 99.9% of the whole New Testament.

Does David’s Messianic Verse Show Jesus is God?:

Even David under the influence under the Holy Spirit said “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.”

Does this verse really need explaining? Look at how it is worded. THE Lord said to MY Lord. Again, The Lord=God, My Lord=the Messiah/King/Lord. How is that confusing? Jesus is even trying to explain that King David called the Messiah his Lord, meaning, it couldn’t have been literally King David’s son. He is merely a line of Kings that come from David, not David’s literal throne. All Kings are called “My Lord.” That is why David says this. Not because the Messiah=God. Jews have never expected the Messiah to be The God.

And again, you ignore the obvious part of this verse, which shows 2 separate beings. So you are saying God is talking to Himself, to sit at his own right hand? The Lord (God), says to My Lord (Jesus), sit at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. How is King David’s Lord (the Messiah/Jesus) sitting at God’s right hand (literally), if they are the same people? Why is God talking to Jesus if Jesus=God. Again, this argument does nothing to my view but strengthen it, and it leaves you without an explanation. It is very obvious they are NOT the same entities here.

Does John 5:18 Prove Jesus Is God?

You say the following:

Wait there is more in John 5:18: 18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.” Yes that is right Jesus was equal “=” to God

First of all, Jesus doesn’t say he is equal with God. What John is saying is simply the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus for breaking the Sabbath, and calling God his own Father (which they took to meant that he was saying he was equal with God).

Once again, I don’t understand how you or anyone else can take this to mean he is God, when Jesus clears this up IN THE VERY NEXT VERSE. Jesus quickly says the following:

(John 5:19) “Jesus said to them, “Truly, Truly I say to you, the Son can do NOTHING of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.” For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing.”

He denies it with his own LIPS! Again, the Pharisees make the mistake thinking that Jesus is breaking the Sabbath, and also that He is claiming Equality with God. Yet surprisingly, Jesus immediately (in the next verse), shows that it isn’t true. He explains that the Father gave him his abilities. He says He is NOT equal with the father. He says he can do NOTHING on his own! A pretty hefty statement don’t you think! So you believe the Pharisees over Jesus own lips? And I might quickly point out that once again, Jesus is making a distinction between himself & God. You still don’t see this. It is on almost every page of the New Testament.

Not only that, but if you are going to believe what the Pharisees think about Jesus, then you will also have to think that he is a blasphemer, a Liar, and filled with Satan, because the Pharisees also falsely say that about Jesus in the Bible. Again, Jesus set this straight in the next verse on this one, and clearly shows he can do NOTHING (his own words) on his own.

Furthermore, Jesus already explains & denies that he is God (as I showed somewhere above) and that is not what he means when he says Son of God. He clearly explains that by saying that anyone who preaches God’s word are ‘gods’ as it was written in their law. Okay, next verse you  mention:

Did Jesus Saying “I Am” in John Mean He Is God?

He knew what He was saying when He also said “Before Abraham was I AM”. If you read you will find that Jesus was saying that He was there before Abraham but not only that but also that He was the God who talked to Moses in Exodus 3:14:
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Ok you might ask where did Jesus say that He was “I AM” well lets go into the New Testament. John 8:58-59:
58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. Even the Jews knew who Jesus was claiming to be which is why they took up stones to cast at Him.

Once again, this verse is very tricky, and people deceptively try to say Jesus is claiming to be God. It just isn’t so, and I will show you why.

You do understand that the original Greek word for “I AM” is just a regular word, right? Just like if I say a sentence such as, “I am going to the store.” It would be using that same word if it was in the original Koine Greek. The word itself has absolutely NOTHING to do with God, claiming Godship, etc.

Here is the original Greek word used by Jesus: ‘ego eimi.’ It literally means I am. Not only that, but the tenses used in this language are often used interchangebly, allow it to mean past, present, or future.  Here is an example of when it was translated as “I HAVE BEEN” (which it should be translated here):

8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “I have been (Same word “ego eimi”) so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

See, this verse right here shows that the same word is translated into “I have been.” Yet, the bible translators for some versions (who are trying to make Jesus=God), try to keep this as “I AM” to make it sound like he is claiming he is God. But lets look at the whole verse.

The whole context of this verse is this: Jesus is claiming that Abraham was excited to see his day coming (the Messiah). And the Pharisees scoff at this and say, “You are not yet 50 years old, yet you have seen Abraham? And Jesus then replies, “Before Abraham was, I have been.”

See how much more sense that makes. Now let’s use your version meaning that Jesus is saying he is God. Here is what it should say since you say I AM always=GOD…..”Before Abraham was, God.” Does that sentence make sense?

No, of course not. What is Jesus trying to prove here? Simply that he knew of Abraham simply because he existed before Abraham did. This is a biblical teaching that Christ existed spiritually before he came to Earth physically. So this holds together perfectly with what the bible teaches.

Second of all, if you are making the claim that he is calling himself God based on a common “I AM” word used by everyone, then the verse should have mirrored EXACTLY what God said. As you point out, God doesn’t say his name is “I AM.” He says his name is “IAM that I AM.”

So if you are really going to try & twist this verse to mean Jesus is God, it should have said,  “Before Abraham was, I Am that I Am.” But this isn’t what it says, is it?

Furthermore, many bible translations today are correctly translating this verse to what it is actually trying to say, that he existed before Abraham. Nothing more, nothing less.

And what absolutely shocks me YET AGAIN about this verse, is you completely ignore the 50 other verses on the same page that have Jesus saying he isn’t God & they are separate. Example: just a couple of verses before this, Jesus says, “(54) If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my father who glorifies me…” Again, you are absolutely ignoring Jesus claiming that he himself is nothing, that everything he does the father granted him. This is Jesus’ own lips! What has more authority, Jesus’ own lips, or some pastor, preacher, doctrine, or whatever else?

Again, about the translations, even Christians or Greek scholars will tell you that this verse can ABSOLUTELY be correctly translated in any of the following ways: I am, I have been, I was, etc.

And about the verse above with Philip, again, Jesus is saying if you have seen him you have seen the Father. Not that he is God. He is implying that he knows God, has a special relationship with God, is preaching God’s word, and fulfilling God’s will. He has God in  him, and you could say that if you know Christ, you know God. But that doesn’t make Christ God. The bible teaches us to have God in us, to have also Christ in us. It says if we love, we have God in us, and we are in God. That is what Jesus is saying to Philip.

Why Were the Pharisees About to Stone Jesus if He Wasn’t Saying He Was God When He Said “I AM?”

Some try to say that the Pharisees knew Jesus was claiming to be God, and this is why they pick up stones. But is this true? Not exactly.

They were already extremely irritated with Jesus, because he is claiming a special relationship with God, calling himself the Son of God, and even the Messiah.  So I suppose you can say that they are already fed up with him.

In Jewish tradition, the prophets & Abrahamic fathers are a BIG DEAL. So when Jesus is talking, notice they get mad and say, “Are you greater than Abraham, who died, and the prophets, who died?”

Jesus essentially answers, “Yes.” They didn’t like this, and wanted to kill him. Again, not because he is claiming to BE GOD. But because Jesus is claiming greater authority than Abraham, and the prophets. This would have been absolutely considered a blasphemy, especially when they apparently weren’t convinced Jesus was even the Messiah in the first place (or else why have him killed?). By Jesus saying that he had pre-existence, it was saying he was greater than even father Abraham. Even today if someone said this to a Jew, they would probably get extremely offended.

Why Does Jesus Say, “I am Alpha & Omega, Etc. In Revelation if He Isn’t God?

Once again, you are neglecting several other key scriptures that will give you the answers if you view them all in the proper context & order as we should.

Notice the FIRST sentence of the entire book of Revelation: The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants…”

This undoubtedly proves Jesus IS NOT God. Again, you seem to ignore the fact that even in heaven after Jesus’ ascention, God is still granting him stuff. Everything Jesus is showing here is “granted” by God.

And yet again, just a few verses later, Revelation 1:6 (talking about Jesus), and made us a kingdom, priests to his God {Jesus has a God in heaven} and Father, to him be the glory & dominion forever, Amen. Again, black & white scriptures show us Jesus has a God, even in Heaven. God Almighty has NO God above him.

That will help clear up everything when you are reading it. Okay, so let’s jump right in to those passages.

The first Alph & Omega mentioned is clearly God. In fact, it even says it is: Revelation 1:8 “I am Alpha & Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

This is clearly God talking of his coming Kingdom. It mentions nothing about Jesus in this verse, and within the own text attributes this saying to God. Again, let me point out that as you read Revelation, you are going to have a hard time if you think Jesus=God, because he is talking to God, still telling people about his Father, etc. Doesn’t make a lot of sense if Jesus=God does it? Also, pay attention to the command from the angel in Revelation 19:10: “Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testamony of Jesus. Worship God.”

See  how the Angel said to only worship God, and not Jesus or the lamb?

Then the only other time I could find in Revelation of the ‘Alpha & Omega’ phrase is in Revelation 21:5.  And again, it CLEARLY identifies it as God who says this. The one seated on the throne is God, as it says in just a couple of verses above. “And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with Man, …”

Then it says, “The one seated on the throne  (God) said, “(6) And he said to me, it is done! I am the Alpha & Omega, the beginning & the End.”…and then it goes on in a sentence or two later to even reinforce that God himself is speaking this…”I will be his God and he will be my son.”

Remember, Jesus calls us brothers, sisters, etc. Yet God continually refers to us as “sons.” That should tell you something right there.

So again, Revelation Jesus isn’t saying this, God is, and it makes that crystal clear within the own scripture passages.

Here is Another Comment You Made:

Also I read how you mocked at the fact that the disciples were asleep and so how was the Scriptures meant for them to see that He was in flesh when he prayed to the Father “Your will be done”. I say to you then how do you know and I even know about that prayer unless it was revealed to someone by the Holy Spirit what was said by Jesus? It was Just as the large rock was rolled away when Jesus rose. Was it rolled back for Jesus to get out? No, for It was moved for the sake of the disciples to see how He had risen even testified by angels.

I wasn’t trying to mock the fact the disciples were asleep, I was just pointing out that it is a very weak argument to suggest Jesus only prayed to himself (if he is God) to give an example. In fact, it shows us several times when others are asleep, or he goes into a mountain or place by himself to pray. It certainly isn’t trying to teach us anything, other than the fact that Jesus was obedient to God & prayed & worshiped him. That is all it proves. It also proves Jesus isn’t God, because God is self-sustaining. He doesn’t need to pray to himself, even when he manifested in other forms in the Old Testament.

How do we know about that prayer? Yes, of course the apostles must have known about it, they even woke up a few times. Or perhaps they God showed them this even when they were writing the gospels. But my point is simply it isn’t there to show us how to pray, or something else (If anyone tries to use that as a crutch to say why God would pray to himself). Again, my only point is to disprove the argument that Jesus prayed to himself to give us an example. He did it in solitary most times. When asked how to pray, he told us to pray to God, not Jesus.  That was all I was trying to get at with that point. Sorry if it sounded as if I was mocking.

Your Last Comments:

As I stated before you have already made up in your own mind to force the Scriptures to make sense to you but you should not change the Scriptures and place aside one Scripture for the other one as they all fit in harmony if you do indeed have the Holy Spirit inside you then God will bring spiritual sense.

Again, let me stress something. I used to believe in the trinity. I used to believe Jesus is God. Why did I switch? Well first I lost my faith as I mentioned above. But when you examine the scriptures, it isn’t in there. There are a few “iffy” verses as you have pointed out (and a few more I suspect you may try to show), but they are very few & far between. I think there are only a total of about 5-20 verses people try to use to say Jesus is God. Of those, only about 5 need to be examined more closely. Of those ZERO hold up! If they did, I myself would still believe Jesus=God. Not only that, but upon close examination we see one of the following is true with ALMOST ANY VERSE trying to prove JESUS IS GOD.

1. It is a title used to reference others.
2. It is an ambiguous translation that can be translated another way & still be correct, but mean something different.
3. The passage right after, before, or something else proves in fact Jesus isn’t God at all (in the cases of Jesus denying it himself).
4. The context is trying to convey something completely different.
5. It is what I like to call a “riddle” verse, that you are trying to say Jesus=God based on the way the verse is worded, when in fact, upon close inspection disproves the theory that Jesus=God.
6. By the way, you do realize that these are not originals, but translations. They can go either way with some words in them, and still be correct. If we honestly look at the bible, we should view all possible ways something can be conveyed.

Some Final Words:

Okay, so I have viewed every single claim you are making so far. I have shown that they scriptures are not in any direct way saying Jesus is God. Let’s be honest for a minute. If they wanted to prove Jesus is God, they could have made that unmistakably clear. There is no doubt of certain things taught in the bible. We are not to commit adultery. We are not to steal. The bible makes these things extremely clear. If Jesus is God, why isn’t it clearly there? It just isn’t at all. Why did the early church goers (such as Arius, the apostles, etc) not believe this. Why is it most Greek scholars don’t think Jesus is God?

Why is it that Isaac Newton, who was one of the most brilliant scientists in the world (who invented Calculus, the Law of Gravity, & so much more), spent MORE time on the bible than he did on science during his lifetime, taught himself Greek to study the scriptures, collected early church documents for examination, and was a master at scriptures…..why did he also believe almost the same beliefs (exactly) that I believe about Jesus? Even at the risk of being killed (since the church made the doctrine of Jesus=God in about 400 AD & would kill or imprison you if you denied it).

Almost every page of the bible will show you that they are 2 disctinct & different entities (almost the whole Book of Revelation proves this). If you are going to stick to your position that Jesus is merely a manifestion of the same God, then this makes no sense. The scriptures reveal it immediately. If you try to go back to the old trinity doctrine that “they are 3 different things, but make up 1 God” then that is even more nonsense that is easily disproven with scriptures. If you try to give  up on the “hard questions” and say, “God is a mystery” then that is a cop-out excuse used by almost every trinitarian to get out of having to defend a false & illogical doctrine. The scriptures will reveal the truth, if you use your mind to search for it.

I have examined every verse thus far, and shown you my proof of how my theory still stands. Yet you still try to hold that Jesus=God without trying to backup your claims at all. You still haven’t answered how (if they are the same) Jesus is still there in heaven in Revelation. You still have yet to mention why there is a clear distinction between them (not just while Jesus is in Flesh, but also heaven). If Jesus=God as you suggest, it makes no sense whatsoever, that he is still “manifesting” and taking scrolls from his own hands!

You still don’t explain why Jesus says the father is greater, and still says God is granting him stuff after he is in heaven. If you say it is because he is flesh, that doesn’t cut it. The flesh doesn’t stop the miracles does it? The flesh didn’t stop other things that people try to use to prove Jesus is God.You still have many unanswered questions to make your doctrine or belief system fit with all of the scriptures.

I don’t have that problem. Mine is 100% supported by all scriptures, with no contradictions at all. If you can show me a verse that says, Jesus is God, worship him as such, I will do it. If you can even find a verse showing me that Jesus fuses with God once he is back in Heaven I will believe it. But it simply is not there. I would believe it if it was.

The reason you will have a hard time trying to reconcile things about Jesus & God is because you think they are the same entity/mind. They aren’t. Jesus is Jesus. God is God. If you understand that, the whole bible makes sense. You won’t have to explain those hard questions above that no person who believes Jesus=God can answer logically.

Again, you accuse me of trying to ignore or bend scriptures, but as I have pointed out this time, you are the one who literally is ignoring every scripture right around the verses you provide which clearly shows Jesus isn’t God. In fact, almost every verse you provided last time was that way. I am not bending anything. They are honest & accurate translations, contexts, and meanings.

Again, I am doing what the bible says to do. I am examining the scriptures & being very serious about it.

Show Me My Sin In Interpretation:

If you can even show me a sin with believing the following beliefs I have (according to the bible), I will quickly repent & admit my mistake:

1. I believe Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, the Prince, the High Priest, who is seated at the Right Hand of God, and will serve God as Lord over mankind for eternity, at the right hand of God. I, in no way, deny Jesus as my “Lord” (meaning authority), and savior. I don’t deny him at all. I serve Christ! Because serving Christ is to serve God! Just as to serve Moses’ 10 commandments is to serve God. Why? They came from God. To serve Christ is to serve God. Why? He came from God, and testified about his Father. But he is different from God, created by God, and is not God.

2. I believe God is the Almighty, with more authority that Jesus Christ. God is God. There is no above him. He has no beginning, he has no end. He is always the ultimate authority, even greater than Jesus (who declared with his own lips God is greater & granted Jesus his abilities).

Show me in the scriptures where those 2 beliefs above are a sin, and I will repent. If I am wrong, the scriptures should declare it. By the way, don’t say I am denying Jesus. I am not. Jesus said those who deny him deny the father who sent him. I am believing what the bible says we MUST believe about him. I deny that Jesus IS God, because he NEVER taught that concept at all. He would have likely been killed by his own disciples for blashpemy.

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However, if you are wrong in your belief, and Jesus isn’t God, then one possible sin comes to mind:

“Thou shall have no other Gods before me.” (Idolatry).

So again, my question is this: If we don’t have to believe Jesus is God, the scriptures don’t come out with 100% clarity that Jesus is God (and so far I have disproved the claims with scripture & logic), and you risk idolatry by believing Jesus is God (when you could be wrong), why do it?

If you can’t explain the simple questions I have asked, why not re-examine the scriptures. See if my way holds up. If it doesn’t please show me. I will be happy to amend my beliefs. But so far, not one thing has been presented to show me that I am wrong. Not one.

Again, thanks so much for all of your information & input, and I have enjoyed this friendly debate. If you have more, please let me know! I love learning, and I want to be correct in my ways. Let the scriptures declare the truth.

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Latest Reply:

First, I just want to thank you for your reply. You brought up more scriptures I have already considered, and I will be happy to show you my views on them, which fits perfectly with the bible.

However, before I do so, I would just like to point out that this is a friendly debate here, yet it seems a bit one-sided. It is becoming a thing where you don’t reply to my arguments, but I take great lengths to show you how my views are scripturally supported.

I appreciate your questions, and I welcome the other scriptures you have. However, I ask only one thing. If Jesus is God, please answer the countless questions I have asked above which show he isn’t. Again, you have not doen this one time, yet I have addressed every single question of yours, backed with exact scripture as proof, and not only that, but it makes perfect logical sense what I am saying. So please, answer my questions above along with your next reply. Because of course we can say Jesus=God & pick out a couple of scripture out of context, but it will contradict other scriptures. Thank you in advance. Here is your reply:

Thank you my friend, I am very pleased that you answered my second letter or question as promptly as the first. You said that in the Book of Revelation that Jesus did not say that He is the Alpha and Omega but rather the Lord God spoke this. Ok, Lets look then in Isaiah when the Lord God says that He is the First and the Last. Isaiah 48:12: 12Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Not only does God call Himself this here but also here in Isaiah 44:6: Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Ok now in the Book of Revelation you may argue that Alpha and Omega may have been added by translators when Jesus is talking, however “First and the Last” this is the title that the Lord God uses for Himself and nowhere else did I find it in the Bible both Old and New except in Isaiah and Revelation. Now in Revelation it is often added with Alpha and Omega when Jesus speaks of Himself but if you will take “Alpha and Omega” out it will still read, “I am the First and the Last”. In the Book of Revelation Jesus says this more than once introducing Himself as the “First” and the “Last” in my understanding Alpha and Omega means the same thing. Thank you as I do appreciate your time. Here are the all the places where I find “Alpha and Omega” because you seem to not have been able to find but two places [Revelation 1:8, Revelation 1:11, Revelation 21:6, Revelation 22:13]. “First and Last” is found in these Scriptures other than Isaiah, Revelation 1:17, Revelation 2:8, Revelation 22:13. You seem like you will not be convinced unless Jesus Himself says “I am God” directly to you. Also you down played the fact that Jesus was worshipped by others and if to worship Jesus was so wrong as you suppose then why did Jesus not say stop as the angel told John and said to worship God. I say this because you are implying that it was ok when people worshipped Hi!
m but th
at wasn’t worshipping Him the same way John did by falling at the feet of the angel. Also what about the beginning of the Book of John? How it says that Jesus is the Word and was made flesh and also how the world was created by Him “10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.” Read in Ephesians 1:21-22: 21far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.” You say that when the Lord God in the Book of Revelation says “was, is, and is to come” He is speaking of His(Father’s kingdom) but clearly Paul is saying that Jesus’ name is above all even in that which is to come. Here are your words exactly: “This is clearly God talking of his coming Kingdom”. Well then how will Jesus have dominion and a higher name in that which is to come if you say in not so many words that the coming Kingdom is the Father’s and by doing so you are also saying that the Kingdom is not Christ’s? Colossians 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:. That verse backs up my claim that Jesus is God in a bodily form meaning He is the image of God or as I say manifestation of God. Also I was surprised at how you down played the Scriptures in Hebrews when God calls Jesus God you compared it to Moses, David and even Satan. First off you said “Now, the interesting thing that is going on here is again, God is calling King David God.” in Psalm 45 it was not even concerning David but Jesus just like Psalms 16:10 was not concerning David as mentioned in Acts 13:36. The author of Hebrews placed that verse there to reveal what God had revealed to him that it was written concerning Christ and not David. Secondly you said “In fact, Moses is even called God BY God Himself” now you know that is not true for God said Moses was made AS god to PHARAOH and you know it. Thirdly you said “The bible als!
o calls
Satan God” and this is not what the bible says at all for it says this “god of this world” and you know that does not say that Satan is God but “god of this world”. In the Book of Hebrews it shows that the Father plainly calls the Son God so please remove the “IF”. What you are trying to do is say “God does not speak to Himself” and you must stop there because if you really read the Scriptures God speaks to Himself a lot. “And God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness” and “3And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for he also is flesh; yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.” Also “7And the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, and the creeping thing and the fowls of the air, for I repent that I have made them.” And many other places God speaks to Himself so to say that He does not would not be true. Lastly in closing if you read carefully in Hebrews 7:3 3Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Ok here It plainly says that Melchisedec was made like unto the Son of God and we know for sure that Jesus is The Son of God but you might say “read on and you will see that Jesus was made after the order and rank of Melchisedec”. Yes, indeed He was made after that order and you might even say “it is to mention only about Melchisedec’s priesthood”, but Jesus was made a Priest forever after Melchisedec so clearly the Scripture is speaking to Melchisedec’s not having the beginning of days nor ending of life. Who else does that sound like? The angels were made and so man was too having the beginning of days or time of creation. Thank you and as I said there is much much more.

First off, you seem to not be satisfied with what the scriptures actually say word for word in Revelation, which almost every single translation says, so let’s examine them. Here is your claim:

You said that in the Book of Revelation that Jesus did not say that He is the Alpha and Omega but rather the Lord God spoke this. Ok, Lets look then in Isaiah when the Lord God says that He is the First and the Last. Isaiah 48:12: 12Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Not only does God call Himself this here but also here in Isaiah 44:6: Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Ok now in the Book of Revelation you may argue that Alpha and Omega may have been added by translators when Jesus is talking, however “First and the Last” this is the title that the Lord God uses for Himself and nowhere else did I find it in the Bible both Old and New except in Isaiah and Revelation. Now in Revelation it is often added with Alpha and Omega when Jesus speaks of Himself but if you will take “Alpha and Omega” out it will still read, “I am the First and the Last”. In the Book of Revelation Jesus says this more than once introducing Himself as the “First” and the “Last” in my understanding Alpha and Omega means the same thing. Thank you as I do appreciate your time. Here are the all the places where I find “Alpha and Omega” because you seem to not have been able to find but two places [Revelation 1:8, Revelation 1:11, Revelation 21:6, Revelation 22:13]. “First and Last” is found in these Scriptures other than Isaiah, Revelation 1:17, Revelation 2:8, Revelation 22:13.

First you bring up Isaiah 48:12 saying that God called himself the first & last. And the other one where Isaiah has God saying he is first & last, and there is no other God besides him. What God is simply saying is that there is no God Amighty besides him. Are there other gods? Sure. Is there a God to THE GOD? No, there is no other superior God. God is the ultimate God. Again, that doesn’t mean there isn’t a god. God makes Moses a God to Pharoah. Satan is called the god of the Earth. Kings are called gods. It says there are many Gods & many Kings. It says this stuff repeatedly in the bible. Nothing new there. God calls other gods false gods. Again, the word gods is used all the time. But THE GOD is always in reference the the Holy Lord God Almighty. So again, that God part in Isaiah shows nothing in terms of saying there aren’t other gods, but it merely is saying there is but 1 God Almighty. That is what I believe exactly.

Why Does God Use First & Last, Alpha & Omega? What Does it Mean?

Now, about the first & the last title. What God is indicating here is that he is the ‘First & the Last’ meaning he is the one True God who is Almighty. That is all God signifies when he says this. Is this literal? Technically, there is no “last” to eternity, and God can’t be “first” since he has no beginning. He is merely pointing out the fact that there is non above him. He is the first All powerful being, he is the last. Nothing more.

Why Does Jesus Say First & Last in Revelation? Does that Prove Jesus is God?

Again, you have ignored almost every question thus far about my point osf showing Jesus isn’t God, but anyways, let me back up for a second first. There are 4 main players in the book of Revelation. Let me show you the chain of command, and how Revelation is working here:

God Granted (Gave)—–>Jesus Christ’s Revelation, which granted——->An angel to show———>John.

4 people are shown here, God has the authority, Jesus is next, the angel next, and then John. Again, you completely ignore this passage because it blatantly contradicts your theory that Jesus=God. Even while Jesus is in heaven, it is still making bold differences between the two which simply cannot be ignored.

Now, one thing that gets a bit confusing is that Jesus, the Angel, & God are talking interchangebly. It will skip to the angel, to Jesus, and then God Almighty sometimes without making clear distinction within Revelation.

As I mention in Rev. 1:8, there is no doubt this is God, and the scriptures make it clear. The next verse that pops us is Revelation 1:11, again this appears to be the God Almighty, not Jesus or the Angels. By the way, let me point out that in Revelation, almost every single chapter makes a distinction between Jesus & God.  Notice it says in Rev. 1:9 “…for the word of God & the testamony of Jesus Christ.” See that is my point. All this would have to say to convince me Jesus=God is this….”for the word of God, who was/is Jesus Christ.” That would convince me right there. But again, it isn’t the case.

Moving on, the very first verse we come to where it appears Jesus is speaking is in Rev. 1:17-18.  Notice how John falls to his feet (not to worship, but out of fear). Jesus replies,

“Do not be afraid: I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forever-more. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Notice a few things about above:

1. He doesn’t use both Alpha & Omega & Beginning & End as God does right above this passage a few verses up.
2. Jesus Died. If Jesus=God, and Jesus died, then God died. Again, enough with this “flesh” non-sense.  How can you say God can die? He can’t. Yet Jesus absolutely died. He was in the grave for 3 days in fact.
3. I am alive forever more–Why would Jesus say this? Any Jew already knows God is eternal. Jesus is simply saying, “Hey, I told you I would die and be resurrected to eternal life….Bingo…Here I am!
4. What is this “First & Last” business about? It says all through the new testament that Jesus is the “First born of the dead.” He is the “First-born of creation.” He is the “First to asend to the father.” Etc. All this means is that he is the First to be resurrected. You could also argue he was the first creation of God, and I believe that is possible too, but I believe he is talking about being the first human to be resurrected. Why does he say he is the last? He is the last “Adam.” As the bible says, he is the last Adam, he will be the last Great King over Israel for eternity, etc. There are a lot of “firsts and lasts” about Jesus. It is a stretch to say this is saying he is God, especially when the Bible is still at this point referring to them as separate. You really have to ignore scripture to think they are the same thing.

Jesus may use the “first & last” phrase a few times, but never does he say “Alpha & Omega.” Again, let me stress this point: The whole book of Revelation shows separation of Jesus & God. How are you missing this? What is your explanation for this? If Jesus=God as you say, or is a manifestation of him, why is he still there and doing different stuff than God? Why aren’t the burning bushes, whirlwinds, and other manifestations of God being mentioned? If Jesus is a manifestation of God, and he is still around in heaven, then where are on Earth are the other manifestations God used?

Anyways, in Revelation 21:6, again, this is clearly God talking. Again, you ignore the fact that Jesus calls us brothers, and God Always calls us sons. Anyways, this is definitely God talking here, and it is easy to see.

The last verses are in Revelation shows the angel talking in Rev. 22:6-11 on behalf of God & Jesus. We can see this because Johns at the angels feet. So it is clear the Angel is speaking both of God & Jesus. We don’t see Jesus talking by himself until Rev. 22:16. “Then he says, I, Jesus…”

In fact, let me point out once again just how easy it is to spot that Jesus MOST CERTAINLY is NOT God. In the last verse, Jesus is “testifying” to everyone who hears the prophecy of the book, if any one adds, God (not himself) will add plagues….” So Jesus talks, yet references God. Shouldn’t he say “I.”

One last thing. Does the bible ever talk about first and last? Yes, it does, and never is it saying they are God.

Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Mark 10:31

But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”

Conclusion: Revelation only shows God & Jesus to be 2 different things. Nothing implies Jesus=God! If they wanted to make that connection, it would have been so easy for them to do it. All they would have to say is that the Lamb is now God. Or Jesus is God. Or the Lamb fused back with God. Or anything else.

Do I Expect the Bible to Just Come Out & Say Jesus is God?

This is what you said during your last response:

You seem like you will not be convinced unless Jesus Himself says “I am God” directly to you.

Exactly! I am not going to say Jesus is God unless it tells me in the bible. Jesus own lips in the scripture will be fine. But all Jesus says is that the father is greater, worship God, I am doing God’s will, praying to God, and everything in between.

Or even 1 passage that clearly says so. But there isn’t one. Any passage that even remotely appears like it, can be disproven easily. Moving on…

About the Angels & Others Worshiping Jesus:

Again, that word is used for any bowing/respectful gesture. Of course people are going to bow to someone who is performing miracles. Of course they are going to bow to their own King/Messiah. And again, notice the angel in Revelation says to worship ‘God.’ He didn’t say, worship God & the Lamb. He didn’t say, worship God & son. Only God. The word when used for Christ is talking about paying homage, not worship.

Whatever he was doing to the angel must have been inappropriate. Again, that same word can be used for paying respect & homage to someone, or it can be used meaning they are worshiping. What he did to Jesus, what they did to King David, etc. was simply showing respect & reverence. John apparently was doing something inappropriate in this situation. Again, the angel said worship God, not the lamb/Jesus.

And yet again, you completely dodge the point that in that passage about God telling Jesus, “His God” will annoint him. God has no God. Jesus has a God as it says in black & white 100′s of times in the NT.

Does John 1 Prove Jesus is God? The Word Was Made Flesh?

I am actually surprised it took you this long to throw up John 1. That is usually “the” passage trinitarians swear by, and I am surprised you used this verse since it supports the trinity better than it does your view.

Anyways, it seems somewhat mysterious, talks in a riddle, and then says the word becaem flesh. First let me point out, if this is to show us Jesus is God, they could have saved themselves a lot of time and said in 3 words. Jesus is God. Period. Anyways, let’s unravel this riddle: John 1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Okay, first let me point out the obvious to your theory. If “he” was with God in the beginning, how do you explain that? God was with himself in the beginning? It clearly shows a distiction between the two right here in black & white.

Was he still praying to himself at this point? Why would a “Manifestation” be with God in the beginning? If Jesus was simply a manifestation of God to us humans, why is he hanging around with God even in the beginning? Was the burning bush, whirlwind, etc. also with God in the beginning? Those were manifestations? You have yet to provide any logical answer to any of these questions. Again, this verse hurts your argument worse than it does mine, and I will show you why.

The Greek in this verse uses 2 different words for “The God”, and “God” in this very same passage. Here is the original Greek:

“En arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos”

Theos is the word meaning “God.” It says ton theon which means “The God” and then theos which literally means “a god/divine; resembling God, being of similar nature.” Isn’t it a bit strange how it doesn’t use the definite article ‘the’ before the other God. It is making a clear distinction between “The God” and a “god” or a “divine” creature. This actually helps my argument by proving the following:

1. It makes distinction by calling The God Almighty ton theon, and Jesus Christ (son of God) Theos. It even goes on to say, “He was with Him in the beginning.” Jesus was with God. Not, “God was with God in the beginning. That would make no sense!
2. It shows Jesus was pre-existant before becoming flesh. You can’t explain why that would be if Jesus=God. Again, this verse helps my case that Jesus was created spiritually before coming to Earth, and exists distinctly from God after his ascention, which up to this point, you deny to maintain your stance that Jesus is merely a manifestation of God.

This is the true Greek right here, and any scholar will tell you the same thing. Even people who try to defend this passage can’t deny the truth of the translation. Then you say this:

Who Created the World? God, or Jesus Christ? Or the Angels?

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”

Again, this contradicts nothing I have said up to this point. I fully admit God created the world through Christ. God uses his Son to do a lot of things. He uses angels to do a lot of things. All this verse proves is that God created everything through Christ.

King Solomon talks about building his own temples. But when we examine the scriptures, King Solomon really has workers do it for him. Yet, King Solomon says, “I built many buildings & temples.” Why does he say he did it, even though he obviously had workers who labored to build it? Because King Solomon was the active force behind it. The workers were simply carrying out his instructions, his plans.

This is the same thing with God. Who created the world? God did. How did he do it? Through Christ & the angels. Any great authority NEVER does the dirty work! Does a CEO do anything other than call the shots? What about a king? What about the president? They merely speak or command, and others do work for them. God created the heavens & the Earth by speaking the commands. However, I assure you the angels were there doing stuff with him. This is why God says, “Let us make man in our image.” Who is the “we?” The angels & probably even Jesus (spiritually).

Do Jesus & God Both Have a Kingdom? Are Both Jesus & God Both Coming Quickly?

You try to make the point that since Jesus has a kingdom and God does too, then Jesus=God. Also, because both God & Jesus are coming back to do different tasks, that Jesus=God. Here is what you said:

Ephesians 1:21-22: 21far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.” You say that when the Lord God in the Book of Revelation says “was, is, and is to come” He is speaking of His(Father’s kingdom) but clearly Paul is saying that Jesus’ name is above all even in that which is to come. Here are your words exactly: “This is clearly God talking of his coming Kingdom”. Well then how will Jesus have dominion and a higher name in that which is to come if you say in not so many words that the coming Kingdom is the Father’s and by doing so you are also saying that the Kingdom is not Christ’s?

Again, I have to stop in amazement at this passage you provided. Just a mere 5 verses before, we have Paul telling us in verse (17)…that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ….”  HELLO!!! Right here my friend Paul says Jesus has a God. Do you realize what this is saying. Keep going, to verse (20)…’That he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in heavenly places…”  See what I mean. It is everywhere! Every verse you are pulling, you are literally ignoring the 10 verses right around it which clearly show Jesus isn’t God. So you mean you want to me ignore 99.9% of the new testament, and just believe Jesus is God based on verses which can almost immediately be explained with origninal Greek, or by looking at the context? Even when Jesus himself never claimed to be God? Blasphemy! Come one now. This isn’t God’s way friend, that is man-made doctrine to ignore the scriptures like that and pick one verse & try to isolate it!  Anyways, let’s examine it…

All it is saying is what the beginning of the verse is saying in Ephesians (20). God raised Christ, granted him authority, and sat him at his right hand. Do you really not see that this whole passage blows yourJesus=God theory to bits? It does nothing to my theory. I have said all along Jesus is granted power by God. The bible says God grants Christ King over Israel forever (that is what the Messiah is). He is the greatest authority (UNDER GOD). Even above the angels. How do you mean this makes Jesus God? That is really stretching & twisting the scriptures, and ignoring the verse right before it!

Again, I don’t understand how you are confusing the rest. God gives Christ a higher name (hence, he isn’t Christ). This is talking of the event of God exalting christ (giving him authority). He sets him over his people as King. Christ has a throne with all authority under him (except God), and God still has his throne. They both come back if you will read in revelation. They both come quickly. They both have duties & do things during the Millenial Reign. I don’t understand what you are trying to prove here. It does nothing but contradict your theory that they are the same entity. Let’s keep going…

Colossians 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:. That verse backs up my claim that Jesus is God in a bodily form meaning He is the image of God or as I say manifestation of God.

Who’s image did God make us in? We are made in the image of the invisible God too.  Remember back in Genesis,…’Let us make man in our image, in the image of God he created him.” We have the image of God too. Does that make us God?

Not only that, but it shows that Jesus is the “Firstborn of every creature.” Meaning, “He was God’s first creation.” If Jesus=God as you say, then how was he born? And if this proves Jesus is God, why did it say Christ is the image of God? It should have read, “Christ, who is God…” That’s what it should have said.

And again, I might point out, that Colossians spends a lot of time showing 2 different people (God & Jesus). It does not try to make them 1 thing. It does not try to hint that Jesus is above or equal to God at all. Next verses:

Also I was surprised at how you down played the Scriptures in Hebrews when God calls Jesus God you compared it to Moses, David and even Satan. First off you said “Now, the interesting thing that is going on here is again, God is calling King David God.” in Psalm 45 it was not even concerning David but Jesus just like Psalms 16:10 was not concerning David as mentioned in Acts 13:36. The author of Hebrews placed that verse there to reveal what God had revealed to him that it was written concerning Christ and not David. Secondly you said “In fact, Moses is even called God BY God Himself” now you know that is not true for God said Moses was made AS god to PHARAOH and you know it. Thirdly you said “The bible als!
o calls
Satan God” and this is not what the bible says at all for it says this “god of this world” and you know that does not say that Satan is God but “god of this world”. In the Book of Hebrews it shows that the Father plainly calls the Son God so please remove the “IF”.

Again, I don’t know what else I can say about this passage. It is a fact that other people are called gods in the bible (yes the very same word applied to God). It is a fact that this was also spoken to king david. Again, if these are the same entity as you suggest, then apparently God enjoys commanding himself to do things.

Not only that, but it is a fact (just in case you were confused) that God clears us up on this very passage & finishes with, “But God, YOUR GOD, will annoint you…” I don’t understand why you continue to ignore the scriptures right around these verses. God has no God. Jesus has a God, as the bible shows us. It says that countless times, both when he is in the flesh, and once he is back in heaven. It is all over the new testament. I can’t make than any more clear. If you continue to ignore that fact, then I don’t know how else to get my points across. The holy scriptures are there. Trust in them, not your pastor, friends, parents, etc. Next verses:

Does God Talk to Himself in Genesis? Or Is He Talking to Others?

You then make the claim that God talks to himself. Here is what you suggest:

What you are trying to do is say “God does not speak to Himself” and you must stop there because if you really read the Scriptures God speaks to Himself a lot. “And God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness” and “3And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for he also is flesh; yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.” Also “7And the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, and the creeping thing and the fowls of the air, for I repent that I have made them.” And many other places God speaks to Himself so to say that He does not would not be true.

The bible tells us very plainly that there were other things created at this point. Not only on Earth, but it is alwasy taught that angels were present with God during creation, and acting out his will.

God questions Job about whether he was there during creation, and clearly shows us the angels were present:

when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:7)

This is during creation, and again, how can you suggest God is talking to himself at this point? He is obviously talking to angels. They are created in his image, so God says, “Let us make man in our image.”

I am shocked people try to take this verse to suggest God is a trinity, or even that Jesus=God. Anyone in their right mind would assume he is takling to angels. Also, notice how once again they are addressed as “sons,” by God, yet Christ calls us “brothers.”

Furthermore, how does that verse about the spirit of God thriving with man show he is talking only to himself? It doesn’t. Nor does the other verse, he is obviously talking to someone, or else why is it even in the bible! And you can’t show me God praying to himself anywhere can you? And Jesus doesn’t count, because he isn’t God.

Is King Melchisedec Proof Jesus is God?

Paul is comparing King Melchisedec’s Kingdom to Jesus’ Kingdom. Not trying to say Jesus is God! Here is what you say:

Lastly in closing if you read carefully in Hebrews 7:3 3Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Ok here It plainly says that Melchisedec was made like unto the Son of God and we know for sure that Jesus is The Son of God but you might say “read on and you will see that Jesus was made after the order and rank of Melchisedec”. Yes, indeed He was made after that order and you might even say “it is to mention only about Melchisedec’s priesthood”, but Jesus was made a Priest forever after Melchisedec so clearly the Scripture is speaking to Melchisedec’s not having the beginning of days nor ending of life. Who else does that sound like? The angels were made and so man was too having the beginning of days or time of creation.

The whole point & context of this passage is trying to prove something: Jesus is the Messiah! How do we know that? This King Paul is referrring to was not only an actual king, but he was also considered a high priest to his people. He served both functions, which is exactly what Christ will do. Christ is called the High Priest, the Messiah, Son of God, etc.

Paul is trying to make them understand that Jesus is being given this position by God, not by bloodline. This is because they assumed the priest would have to come from a Levi, but as Paul points out, Abraham gave a priest-like tithe to this king, even though the Levi tribe was not yet established. That is all he is saying.

He also points out that Jesus’ rule will be eternal. That is a fact, and contradicts nothing I have said. Again, you completely ignore parts of this chapter that show Jesus seatd at God’s right hand (8:1).

So I have no idea how you take this verse to say 1 thing about Jesus being God. That isn’t the purpose of this verse, and it makes no direct connection at all. In fact, once again, it shows that Jesus is distinct from God.

——————————————————

Final words:  Again, I appreciate all of your question, but you are completely ignoring all of my arguments, points, etc. All you are doing is asking me new questions, without providing a logical explanation for the countless arguments above that blow your theology of Jesus=God completely apart. So please, when you reply again, please address some of these questions I have directed to you this time & last time.

I do realize that at this point, you have used most of your verses available to try to prove Jesus is God. I know there are a few more left (only 1-3 worth debating, but you may have 5-10 in your arsenal), but I will be glad to provide a logical explanation consistent with the original Greek & also the rest of the scriptures. I have viewed them all already, and they just simply don’t hold up under examination.

How much does the color blue weight? You know why that question can’t be answered? Because blue has no weight. The question is illogical. The same question that is illogical is, “How is Jesus God, when the bible clearly makes a distinction between the two?” The answer is, he isn’t God. The only way to try to explain it is to believe the false trinity doctrine (which you reject), or to ignore the question completely, or to provide an explanation which the scriptures can quickly prove wrong.

Again, all I ask is an answer to my questions. If it doesn’t make sense, just see if my view makes sense. See if my view is supported by the scripture (not church doctrine).

Thanks again for everything, may God bless you!

———————————————————————-

I received another reply, thank you. I appreciate you provided the last texts that you think proves Jesus is God. They are the ones I was surprised you waited until now to use, but nonetheless, I knew they would be mentioned.

I also want to thank you for all of your sincere questions, your input, and for your kindness throughout this entire dialogue. Again, I am very disappointed you did not address any questions I asked you, but I understand why you didn’t. Here is the full reply:

Hello again and I do Thank You again for your time. I will show you the sin that you asked about. Jesus Christ is My Lord and My God [John 20:28]. Hopefully you will see that He is The Everlasting Father and The Mighty God[Isaiah 9:6] Who also is the Lord of hosts[Jeremiah 32:18]. Then perhaps you will no longer seek to see the Father as seperate from Christ but One [John 14:9].

Did Thomas Call Jesus Christ God in John 20:28?

First, I will address the whole Thomas scripture. Once again, this is an easy verse to disprove, and the most shocking thing is that yet again, the bible clears right up any misconceptions & sets straight who we are to believe Jesus is. So let’s jump right in:

(28) Thomas answered him, “My Lord and My God.”

There are several possible reasons to why Thomas says this, that not only make sense, but agree with the original Greek semantics used in this particular scripture. I will address all possibilities below:

1. Thomas is merely calling Jesus “Lord” and then also gives praise to “God” separately. Let me give you a more detailed example to illustrate how this could be. Thomas in amazement looked at Jesus and said “My Lord” then looked up and said, “and My God.” Obviously the scripture doesn’t elaborate on this moment, and it merely says exactly what Thomas said, without giving the context in which he phrased it.
2. Thomas could have said “My God” from amazement, as one would expect after seeing someone resurrected from the dead with holes in their hands. This can be illustrated with another example that we have all used at some point:  My wife walked in the room and told me we won 15 Million dollars in the lottery. I looked at her, fell on my knees and said, ‘Oh my God.’ Am I calling my wife God here? No, of course not. I am merely giving exclamation in my excitement to God Almighty. Yet this sentence, structured almost exactly like Thomas’ sentence. So it is quite possible he is exclaiming with great shock Jesus is Lord, and then says, “And my God” talking about the father.
3. Almost any Greek scholar will tell you that this actual sentence is not a very good one to prove Jesus is God. The reason is the exact words used in the Greek, the word Kurios was used. Here is what a Geek scholar said:  (Furuli, Page 220, note 42), “If the words of John 20:28 were directed only to Jesus, is rather strange that the nominative form kurios and not the vocative form kurie was used.” But that isn’t it…
4. The word used again here is Theos. Theos simply means, “God, a god, divine, etc.” It is rather strange that they didn’t use a direct word “Kurie when calling Jesus Lord, and then it goes on to say “Theos” instead of ho theos. Again, even if this was directed toward Jesus, it is not saying he is God the father. It could be implying he is simply divine. Again, I think instead personally it is probably the other 3 options above, but this is yet another logical possibility with scriptural support in the original Greek. But I think it is quite obvious that Thomas is calling the father “My God” due to the way the Greek sentence structure is, and also the fact that Jesus didn’t rebuke him. Again, ‘god’ (theos) is used all in the New Testament to refer to any kind of a ‘god.’ There is only 1 SUPREME God, and that is God Almighty. But the bible itself calls angels “gods,” satan a god of the earth, Moses a God to Pharaoh, etc. It calls Baal a false God, etc. There are ‘gods’ all in the OT & NT. But while there may be many “lords & authorities and even ‘gods’, there is but 1 Almighty, All Powerful God–God the father!
5. The whole point of this passage is what? To prove Jesus is God? Or is it to show that Thomas doubted Jesus has been resurrected at all, but yet was filled with utter amazement as he was proved wrong by Jesus showing himself to Thomas. It is the second. This context is being misused by you & trinitarians once again to try to prove Jesus is God.

Now, let me briefly outline what this passage SHOULD have said if the point was to prove Jesus was God:

1. It should have said, “Thomas answered and said, “My Lord is God.” Or, My Lord is God the Father. Or even, “You are Truly God.” Yet, it doesn’t do that does it? Or, even if the original Greek used the word Kurie, it would have made a stronger case that he was actually calling Jesus God, but surprisingly, it doesn’t.
2. Just in case you are still not convinced, perhaps it will help to once again examine the scriptures just a few verses before, and literally 2 verses after. In John 20:17, Jesus’ own lips say, “…..I have not yet ascended to the Father, but tell my brothers, “I am ascending to my Father & your Father, to My God and Your God.” Again, in black and white showing Jesus Christ & God are 2 separate things. There is only 1 way to interpret this verse, and it is that Jesus has a God! Even once he returns to heaven, the father is greater because he is granting Jesus stuff!
3. And just in case that isn’t enough to convince us of what Thomas really meant, the bible does a great job of summarizing what we are to believe in just 2 verses after (John 20:30) “…but these things are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and by believing you may have life in his name.” So right there, 2 verses later it tells us what we are to believe. Jesus is the Christ & Son of God. Don’t you think this would have been a great opportunity to show Jesus is the Father? Wouldn’t this have been a splendid time to say Jesus is THE God if it were true? Yet it isn’t at all! The verses before & after Thomas’ verse, should remove any doubt that Jesus is NOT God the father as you believe. They are absolutely different! Let’s move on…

Does Isaiah 9:6 Prove Jesus is God? Is the Messiah Supposed to Be God?

You, again, mistakenly take Isaiah 9:6 to mean Jesus is literally “The God.” He isn’t, and it is so obvious to almost anyone, and I will even cite Trinitarian Christian websites which even agree that this isn’t meaning Jesus is God the Father. Here is the verse;

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [a] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

Again, before we get into this verse, just let me make the point that the Jews, who wrote the Old Testament, never believed this meant the Messiah was going to be God. Never. They take this verse to mean the Messiah is simply powerful, mighty, and will rule for eternity.

Furthermore, actual Christians who do believe Jesus is God (trinitarians), dismiss this verse as saying Jesus is supposed to be God the father. Example, the popular Christian trinity website (CARM), says this about the verse,

“When Isaiah 9:6 says that Jesus’ name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, etc., it is not saying that Jesus is the eternal Father, but that he has the characteristics of God.  In other words, Jesus has all the attributes of God, including eternality.”

So let us now examine each individual phrase it says applies to the Messiah, and see what it means: he will be Wonderful Counselor—this means nothing of him being God at all; Prince of Peace–Of course there will be peace with Jesus, after all, God sets Jesus up as the Ruler over the new coming Kingdom on Earth. There is no more sin; Everlasting Father—-this one seems interesting at first glance, but let’s look closely. Was Jesus the Father? What did Jesus himself say? No, he has a father. All this verse is trying to say is that he will have everlasting Kingdom. Remember, we are all granted “everlasting life.”

Not only that, but naming people names with “god” or “father” in the title is not unusual at all for the old testament. Abraham’s original name (Abram), in the Hebrew (Avram) literally means “Exalted Father.” Exalted means most  high. Does this make Abraham God? Of course not. Neither does “everlasting father” make Jesus God. He said he had a Father, he had a God.

The name in the bible  “Eliezer” literally means— “the Lord is my Helper.” Again, this does nothing. But what about “Mighty God.” Does that prove Jesus is God? No way!

The word translated to God in Hebrew is literally, “el.” Once again, this is not God’s name (Yahweh/Jehovah), but rather a generic word for God, much like the New testament Greek’s “theos.”

Again, Mighty “el” just means he will be strong, powerful, etc. It does nothing to prove he is God the father, even trinitarians, Hebrew Scholars, Jews, and anyone else will point this out! This whole passage in Isaiah is doing nothing more than describing the future Messiah by giving him many names. It is in no way trying to indicate the Supreme God will actually be the Messiah. That makes no logical sense, and has no scriptural support at all.

What Isaiah Should have said: IF this passage wants us to believe the Messiah will be The God, it could have done it easily. It could have said, “His name will be Yahweh, our God in heaven will come to earth.” Or any other language like that. But again, it doesn’t mean Jesus=God, nor Jesus=the Father, unless you want to believe everyone in the Old Testament with that name is also God or Jesus.

Furthermore, many Jews hold that this is a dual prophecy, talking about both King Hezekiah, and also a future Messiah. This is not unusual, as we see many messianic prophecies have a dual meaning, they mean something of the present, and the future. Just like Moses raising the Bronze Serpant. This was an actual even then, and also was messianic referring to how we would be saved through Christ being raised on the cross.

In fact, here are a few other popular translations of this passage:

Wonder-Counsellor, Divine Champion, Father Ever, Captain of Peace. — Byington
A wonder of a counsellor, a divine hero, a father for all time, a peaceful prince. — Moffatt
In purpose wonderful, in battle God-like, Father for all time, Prince of Peace. — New Engligh Bible
Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty Hero, Eternal Father, Prince ofPeace. — Revised English Bible
Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty One, Potentate, Prince of Peace, Father of the age to come. — The Septuagint, as found in the Codex Alexandrinus, translated by Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton, c. 1850.

Again, it is really a stretch to try & say this means Jesus=God. Now, last but not least, Jeremiah 32:18:

You show loving kindness to thousands, and recompense the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name,

There is no doubt that this is talking about The God (Yahweh), the Father, as it is referring to him bringing them out of Egypt. So this does nothing about meaning Jesus=God. I suppose what you are trying to do is make a connection with this verse to Isaiah how it says “Mighty God.”

Again, I can’t stress this enough, it uses the phrase, “Mighty ones,” with other kings, etc. It uses this same phrase in Ezekiel 32:21, and it has nothing to do with God, it says, “And the mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers out of the midst of Sheol.”

Again, the word for “mighy chiefs” is the same Hebrew word for the “mighy God” verse that you think means Jesus=God. In this sentence in Ezekiel above, it uses the same words…. (elei gibborim). El Gibbor is the word translated to “Mighty God” in Isaiah, and here again, it is shown with no reference to God or Jesus. It is (Elei Gibborim), the plural of (El Gibbor), because it is taking about more than 1 (Mighty “chiefs).

So because it used that word in Isaiah means nothing. It uses it in other places with no reference to God or Jesus. In Jeremiah, it is clear it is talking about God the father. It says he is mighty. So what! God is Almighty. In fact, another translation even says Jeremiah this way:

You show mercy to thousands of generations. However, you punish children for the wickedness of their parents. You, God, are great and mighty. Your name is the LORD of Armies. (God’s Word Translation)

Is My Belief a Sin that Jesus is Not God the Father?

Of course not! You can’t show me even one verse where it says it is a sin if we think Jesus is not the father. Not one! And you say I am making a distinction between Jesus & God is a sin? I hope not! Or else Jesus, the apostles, and countless others are doomed!

Remember, I only believe what Jesus’ own lips taught: He has a God, the Father is greater, he is seated at the right hand, he is the messiah,the Son of God, He can do nothing without the father,  etc.

It is not I that separates Jesus from God, but Jesus himself, and even the whole New Testament. 99.9999% of the whole thing clearly shows they are 2 different beings.

This passage summarizes my beliefs:

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

Furthermore, the bible tells us repeated what me must believe: Jesus is the Christ, and the Son of God. That is it. The New Testament calls Jesus the Messiah/Christ hundreds, if not thousands of times.

It calls Jesus the Son of God hundreds, if not thousands of times.

How many times does it address God with the title “The God.” Not 1 time!

How many times does it address Jesus as the generic word “God” (theos), only 2. That is it, and those are quickly shown to be not actually calling Jesus God at all. In fact, in one it goes on to say a couple lines later that God is his God (Hebrews), and the other with Thomas is clearly shown a few verses before & after that Jesus isn’t the Father.

The other “scriptures” do absolutely nothing at all to prove Jesus is God at all. Even the ones that somewhat look like perhaps they are making a connection are easily disproven when the original Greek is examined, and the countless other scriptures right above & below it. That alone should remove any doubt that Jesus is Not God.

Conclusion: Is Jesus God?

It is quite obvious that Jesus is not God the father. Again, I don’t doubt that you are probably a great Christian, who has firm beliefs. I admire your faith, and I appreciate your following of Christ & God.

I simply disagree with your belief that Jesus=God. It isn’t in the bible. Can you pick a few verses to try to make the case Jesus=God? Sure, but if you do that, you are left with mountains of contradictions, and an illogical view of God that makes no sense whatsoever.

You have not defended you beliefs or answered my questions at all, and instead keep trying to prove Jesus=God with yet more “iffy” verses that are not taken seriously by any scholar to mean Jesus=God. If the scriptures do not prove it, it isn’t true. If you can’t answer those hard questions, it is time to take a step back & re-evaluate your theology.

Not only that, but half of your arguments to show Jesus=God actually support the trinity more than it does your personal view.

I can stand in front of God, and provide an explanation of why I didn’t believe Jesus=God. I can cite Jesus’ own lips, almost the whole New Testament, etc. If I am wrong, there is no sin in it at all, for the bible doesn’t require me to believe Jesus=God the father. Not one time does it say that.

Yet if you are wrong, you risk idolatry, and how can you possibly defend your position when Jesus’ own lips say the father is greater, he has a God, etc.? It just doesn’t make sense. You can’t even explain your replies to me, how can you do it to God?

In any event, I do appreciate your questions. I wish you the very best of luck. May God lead you to the truth in the scriptures. God bless!

NOTE: Keep Reading to Part 2 of This Debate:—>

Also: See my Illustration that clearly shows Jesus is not God.

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Posted under Ask a Question, God, Jesus

People often have so many questions about Jesus. After all, he is a very interesting individual, and perhaps one of the most interesting individuals in the history of the world. There is no doubt that if I could jump in a time machine and go back to any date, it would probably be at the time Jesus was entering his life’s work.

But people often have questions about the nature of Jesus. What was he like? How did he act? I recently came across a question asking if Jesus ever became sick. So let’s take a look at this question.

Did Jesus Ever Get Sick (ill)? Did He Ever Use the Bathroom? Did He Burp or Even Have Gas?

In most cases, yes, Jesus could have become sick. He was human, and just looking at the Bible we can quickly see that he did all of the following: He ate, he drank, he felt hunger, he cried, he died, he prayed, he feared, he bled, he performed miracles, suffered temptation, and more.

In the mix of all of that, he most certainly could have became sick, if it was God’s will for him to get sick. Jesus experienced almost everything that any ordinary human experiences within their lifetime. He would have had moments of happiness, and moments of anger. He would have had moments of sadness, and moments of triumph.

Because of all of these human emotions and experiences, he would also have had to use the bathroom regularly. And yes, perhaps even burp, have an upset stomach, gas, and anything else. Moses, Elijah, Adam, Eve, Noah, Mohammad, and many other leaders and prophets would have been the exact same way.

Just because Jesus was human, does not discount his purpose or fullfillment on this Earth. In fact, it makes his sacrifice even more powerful. For if Jesus could not have “really” been tempted in the first place, what great reward is it that he died? What great reward is it that he lived a sinless life if he was never really tempted anyways? But when you consider that he was tempted in every way we are (just as the Bible states), then that really shows how powerful his sinlessness and sacrifice really was. It shows the true nature and character of Jesus. He felt the same things we felt, but did what was right! He knew he did no wrong, but said, “I will take the blame of all who sinned.”

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